Do "Islamist-conspiracy theorists" ever read the bible?

[Muagan_ra]

Because I'm reasonably sure that Moses and Joshua waged a campaign of genocide in the Jordan Valley and Canaan, nevermind set the Levites to enforcing a police state on the Israelites before they even got there. Or, indeed, do they realise that Moses was the Osama Bin Laden of his day, organising the Israelites into a "terrorist" organisation in order to help get them out from under the thumb of Rameses II (unless, of course, you really do believe the Nile suddenly turned into blood, and that the "holy spirit" slaughtered all the first-born of Egypt.)

Before cherry picking incriminating phrases from Islamic texts, maybe look a bit closer to home. Just sayin'!

[athanaric]

Not saying that those people you're thinking of don't exist at all, but has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, the world isn't split into one Muslim half and one Christian one? There are other people than Christians/Jews who criticize Islam - some of those are Muslim as well. You're setting up a strawman by pretending that all people who're wary or even afraid of Islamists must have Christian roots.
There are many people out there who just reject all forms of monotheism - or even all religion - and those cannot be held accountable for any part of the Bible. In fact, many who dislike Islam also dislike Christianity/Judaism (or forms thereof) for similar reasons.

So basically, the people you're addressing are a small minority. At least, outside of the US. Which means most of this planet.

[Pontifex Maximus]

I hope you aren't trying to justify terrorism by saying supposedly 5,000 years ago someone else did the same thing.

[Vir Triumphalis]

Because I'm reasonably sure that Moses and Joshua waged a campaign of genocide in the Jordan Valley and Canaan, nevermind set the Levites to enforcing a police state on the Israelites before they even got there. Or, indeed, do they realise that Moses was the Osama Bin Laden of his day, organising the Israelites into a "terrorist" organisation in order to help get them out from under the thumb of Rameses II (unless, of course, you really do believe the Nile suddenly turned into blood, and that the "holy spirit" slaughtered all the first-born of Egypt.)

Before cherry picking incriminating phrases from Islamic texts, maybe look a bit closer to home. Just sayin'!

Most Islamic-conspiracy theorists probably have Christian roots so yeah, they have read the Bible. As for the Islamic texts, its not much different from the Bible

[Muagan_ra]

My point is that appropriating the uncomfortable aspects of Islamic theology, and slapping it together with Arab politics, to say that Islam is inherantly a violent abberation is absolute nonsense. It just so happens to be that, in my culture, people do this from a Christian point of view, thus I use this particular example.

[basics]

" My point is that appropriating the uncomfortable aspects of Islamic theology, and slapping it together with Arab politics, to say that Islam is inherantly a violent abberation is absolute nonsense. It just so happens to be that, in my culture, people do this from a Christian point of view, thus I use this particular example. "

Muagan_ra,

Well if we stick to the Koran just for a moment we can see that it is a book of double speak. On the one hand you are not allowed to kill yet on the other you are. On the one hand you are not allowed to lie yet on the other you are. On the one hand you are not allowed to violate women yet on the other you are. It all depends on what extreme of the religion you belong to, to pick up what, in your nature, it is you desire. This is supposedly to be God's final word to man.

If we look at the Bible, the Old Covenant in particular, we find most of the nations conveniently under a similar banner or nature. The Israelites were no different. Men could find any excuse to do the things said above with one exception. The tribes of Israel were chosen to be taken out of that situation to be a separate nation to carry the oracles of God for all mankind. Could they do it? No, they couldn't wiithout the umbrella that God Himself provided for them and which they continually fell foul of.

He, God, did not have double speak and still doesn't. If you kill you will be punished. If you lie you will be punished and if you violate a woman you will be punished. There is no ambiguity there. The word is quite final and so it is that men and women die every day by justice delivered in accordance with the commandments whether Jew or Gentile. Let no-one doubt that what the Israelites were commanded to do they were expected to do and if they didn't they paid for that.

In the continuation of the Bible that is the New Testament these matters were taken out of the hands of men to be delivered solely at the hand of God. What had happened was that the Saviour promised by all the prophets had come just as was predicted by God in the garden at the fall so that what the Israelites had been separated for was now an established fact both prophetically and legally. The fallen nature that had double speak could be seen to be replaced by another that was void of the old nature.

But if one does not have that new nature for sure he or she will continue in the nature that he was born with. That being the case we most certainly can see that certain who clung to the Name who brought in the new yet were not regenerate continued through their old natures to carry on as before, killing, maiming and raping, all in the name of God, themselves still being under condemnation. They too tried to build an empire that like Islam has no foundation, has no Saviour, and is still under the Law given to Moses.

Culture as well as belief are quite pointless without regeneration because the sin that is/was in all of us at our births will never build anything that is primarily good in the eyes of God. How can it? Jew and Gentile, we are a fallen breed that needs regeneration to meet the righteousness of God. Islam doesn't teach it, nor do most of the other religions of the world. No Priest or Imam can change the nature of man, no matter how often they say to continue in good works and God will have mercy.

Mercy comes about by assuaging the Law which demands death for sin and that assuaging must come before death. Good works cannot deliver what is a fallen nature into something acceptable to God. So where is this mercy? Islam doesn't have any. Oh it has lots of promises about what its adherents will receive but these cannot happen unless it can get past the Law given to Moses by God. No my friend, your culture may be different from mine but your nature remains the same as what mine used to be before I was made regenerate.

[justicar5]

" My point is that appropriating the uncomfortable aspects of Islamic theology, and slapping it together with Arab politics, to say that Islam is inherantly a violent abberation is absolute nonsense. It just so happens to be that, in my culture, people do this from a Christian point of view, thus I use this particular example. "

Muagan_ra,

Well if we stick to the Koran just for a moment we can see that it is a book of double speak. On the one hand you are not allowed to kill yet on the other you are. On the one hand you are not allowed to lie yet on the other you are. On the one hand you are not allowed to violate women yet on the other you are. It all depends on what extreme of the religion you belong to, to pick up what, in your nature, it is you desire. This is supposedly to be God's final word to man.

If we look at the Bible, the Old Covenant in particular, we find most of the nations conveniently under a similar banner or nature. The Israelites were no different. Men could find any excuse to do the things said above with one exception. The tribes of Israel were chosen to be taken out of that situation to be a separate nation to carry the oracles of God for all mankind. Could they do it? No, they couldn't wiithout the umbrella that God Himself provided for them and which they continually fell foul of.

He, God, did not have double speak and still doesn't. If you kill you will be punished. If you lie you will be punished and if you violate a woman you will be punished. There is no ambiguity there. The word is quite final and so it is that men and women die every day by justice delivered in accordance with the commandments whether Jew or Gentile. Let no-one doubt that what the Israelites were commanded to do they were expected to do and if they didn't they paid for that.

In the continuation of the Bible that is the New Testament these matters were taken out of the hands of men to be delivered solely at the hand of God. What had happened was that the Saviour promised by all the prophets had come just as was predicted by God in the garden at the fall so that what the Israelites had been separated for was now an established fact both prophetically and legally. The fallen nature that had double speak could be seen to be replaced by another that was void of the old nature.

But if one does not have that new nature for sure he or she will continue in the nature that he was born with. That being the case we most certainly can see that certain who clung to the Name who brought in the new yet were not regenerate continued through their old natures to carry on as before, killing, maiming and raping, all in the name of God, themselves still being under condemnation. They too tried to build an empire that like Islam has no foundation, has no Saviour, and is still under the Law given to Moses.

Culture as well as belief are quite pointless without regeneration because the sin that is/was in all of us at our births will never build anything that is primarily good in the eyes of God. How can it? Jew and Gentile, we are a fallen breed that needs regeneration to meet the righteousness of God. Islam doesn't teach it, nor do most of the other religions of the world. No Priest or Imam can change the nature of man, no matter how often they say to continue in good works and God will have mercy.

Mercy comes about by assuaging the Law which demands death for sin and that assuaging must come before death. Good works cannot deliver what is a fallen nature into something acceptable to God. So where is this mercy? Islam doesn't have any. Oh it has lots of promises about what its adherents will receive but these cannot happen unless it can get past the Law given to Moses by God. No my friend, your culture may be different from mine but your nature remains the same as what mine used to be before I was made regenerate.

you mean except for Leviticus and Deutoronomy in which God specifically instructs the Isrealites to murder, plunder and rape as divine duty?


Mass Muder:

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

rape:

(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion

pillage:

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

[basics]

" you mean except for Leviticus and Deutoronomy in which God specifically instructs the Isrealites to murder, plunder and rape as divine duty? "

justicar5,

I read your posting and quotes but I never once saw the word rape. What I did see however was that these women were to be taken to become wives which has a slightly different appeal to it. Were these things attributed to the Israelites alone? In this particular case they were and if for any reason it didn't work out as a marriage the women were to be released.

The thing is as you pour your scorn on God, is that the other nations were not absolved from doing the very same things or worse, meaning that in the case of the tribesmen their attitude was to be different. The important message here is that they were to take them as wives, treat them like wives, even though the cause of that was not in the hands of the women.

[justicar5]

" you mean except for Leviticus and Deutoronomy in which God specifically instructs the Isrealites to murder, plunder and rape as divine duty? "

justicar5,

I read your posting and quotes but I never once saw the word rape. What I did see however was that these women were to be taken to become wives which has a slightly different appeal to it. Were these things attributed to the Israelites alone? In this particular case they were and if for any reason it didn't work out as a marriage the women were to be released.

The thing is as you pour your scorn on God, is that the other nations were not absolved from doing the very same things or worse, meaning that in the case of the tribesmen their attitude was to be different. The important message here is that they were to take them as wives, treat them like wives, even though the cause of that was not in the hands of the women.

That is moral relativaism, so rape is fine as long as the woman is forced to marry you first? Or it is fine because it was relativly a better end than the one you gave the rest of her family?

You claimed that the bible never condoned killing or theft, and was completly unambigous about it, in those passages it is shown that in fact there where exceptions made, and a religous leader could claim again that killing was fine because god says so, (and in fact they did exactly that during the crusades, and in fact any time the church supports military action, as shown by the 'just war' concept) So the bible is ambigous enough to in fact allow biblical scholars to not only say that killing is fine in certain circumstances, but that in fact there are conditions where it is encouraged, (the aforementioned just war) so, the bible is not as you claim, clear on this issue, at all.

[Copperknickers II]

Well if we stick to the Koran just for a moment we can see that it is a book of double speak. On the one hand you are not allowed to kill yet on the other you are. On the one hand you are not allowed to lie yet on the other you are. On the one hand you are not allowed to violate women yet on the other you are. It all depends on what extreme of the religion you belong to, to pick up what, in your nature, it is you desire. This is supposedly to be God's final word to man.

Exactly. The difference between the Bible and the Quran is that the latter makes it quite clear that God's will is the defining factor. In the Bible you are encouraged to follow the words of the prophets rather than God Himself, there are no hadith or sunnah.

He was a terrorist and bandit before he was a warlord, but so were most of the Jewish heros in the old testament. The Torah doesn't legislate murder the way the Koran does, and the Jews at least recognise that most of the legislative parts of the Torah are no longer relevant.

It doesn't matter whether they recognise it or not, it tells them to do so, therefore it is a corrupting influence. An ideology is not vindicated just because it is not correctly followed. Same with Islam, although there is more room for interpretation in Islam simply because God can do whatever he wants, it is not your job to follow Islam, rather your luck in whether or not you have God's favour.

So the atrocities of one religious group and its "prophet" (e.g. Islam) and those of its competition (e.g. Christianity) cancel out each other? I don't think so. In my mind, they actually add up. What about people who're not affiliated with any religion whatsoever? Are they allowed to criticize the fact that the founder of religion xy was actually a horrific monster?

Of course they don't cancel each other out, I'm saying that they have no basis for critcism if they are hypocrits.

[QUOTE=Central Asian Qaghan;8964194]I would need to write the words in Arabic. Can you read it? No Then there is not point for me doing so.[/qupte]

You can write them in English and in Arabic and give an annoted translation.

It is lost in Translation. Arabic words in the Quran have multiple meanings and is defined by how one person reads it. The Taliban see it in one way while those who are more liberal like myself, see it in another way. This convention is not present in English, thus Translations are never concrete.

This convention is indeed present in English, just can't be directly applied to exactly the same words. A skilled translator can usually convey the meaning, he just might have to explain it. For example the French expression 'esprit d'escalier' means 'spirit of the staircase'. That does not translate directly because the expression makes no sense, but it does translate into English perfectly well with a bit of context.

[Vir Triumphalis]

It's indeed true and sad that some people think that Islam is a inherently violent. The only reason why some people think that way is because of extremists. If an extremists commits terrorism in the name of religion, then that religion is unlucky enough.

[Babur]

It's indeed true and sad that some people think that Islam is a inherently violent. The only reason why some people think that way is because of extremists. If an extremists commits terrorism in the name of religion, then that religion is unlucky enough.

well the same people claim that Muslims can either rule themselves authoritarian or Islamist governments, apparently they can't have a democracy

[black-dragon]

This topic would work better if it compared Islam to an inherently non-violent ideology.

[Vir Triumphalis]

Shinto maybe?

[Col. Tartleton]

Peaceful religions?

Thor

In this sign you will conquer:

[Dr. Oza]

I hope you aren't trying to justify terrorism by saying supposedly 5,000 years ago someone else did the same thing.

Terrorism? Way to equate that with someone saying that generalizations of muslims is hypocritical.

[Khassaki]

Because I'm reasonably sure that Moses and Joshua waged a campaign of genocide in the Jordan Valley and Canaan, nevermind set the Levites to enforcing a police state on the Israelites before they even got there. Or, indeed, do they realise that Moses was the Osama Bin Laden of his day, organising the Israelites into a "terrorist" organisation in order to help get them out from under the thumb of Rameses II (unless, of course, you really do believe the Nile suddenly turned into blood, and that the "holy spirit" slaughtered all the first-born of Egypt.)

Before cherry picking incriminating phrases from Islamic texts, maybe look a bit closer to home. Just sayin'!

Sounds more like you have never read the koran.

[CamilleBonparte]

Sounds more like you have never read the koran.

Well you have to learn Arabic to be able to read the Quran. I've been told several times by muslims that reading it in any other language is meaningless. I suspect this is just a non-thinking way to wave aside my criticisms and the Qurans self-contradictions but who knows maybe there is something magical about the Arabic language that turns all of its words into lies upon translation.

[Central Asian Qaghan]

Well you have to learn Arabic to be able to read the Quran. I've been told several times by muslims that reading it in any other language is meaningless.

Outright lies. I've told you a couple of times and no other. Unless I'm a hive mind with other Muslims I'm the only one.

I suspect this is just a non-thinking way to wave aside my criticisms and the Qurans self-contradictions but who knows maybe there is something magical about the Arabic language that turns all of its words into lies upon translation.

No its because English is a god awful language at defining meanings. It does Arabic great harm to translate it. To get a better sense of the Koran you have to read it in Arabic.

[CamilleBonparte]

Outright lies. I've told you a couple of times and no other. Unless I'm a hive mind with other Muslims I'm the only one.

So it's false then and you're just blowing smoke?

No its because English is a god awful language at defining meanings. It does Arabic great harm to translate it. To get a better sense of the Koran you have to read it in Arabic.

An unrealistic expectation for most of the world. Goes to show Islam is a religion for arabs created by an arab. Also, how come the Torah and the gospels (both validated texts by the Quran) were originally written in languages other than Arabic?