Realisation About Napoleons Success

This is mainly my opinion, but today I realised something.

Everybody criticises the fact that Empire was... a bit of a flop first time around and this seems to carry through onto the worries about TW:S2 in that forum, I even see myself thinking this from time to time. However, this shows a lot of people perhaps overlooking Napoleon.

Now Rome was a good game, no doubt there. I played vanilla, enjoyed it, didn't regret my purchase but what happened is that I ended up playing one of the fantastic mods available for it. I settled on SPQR as for me, I liked the feeling of huge armies moving around.

I bloody loved M2, really really did and Kingdoms only seemed to improve it. But nowadays I enjoy a bit of Stainless Steel as I think the mod perfects the game again for my playstyle.

Empire I barely gave much of a chance. I played it, felt the scale was too large, didn't enjoy it and stopped after about 2 weeks. Came back and what made me want to play, DarthMod.

Yet here I am loading up Napoleon and I realised, this is the only TW game I've ever truly been content with without a mod. I haven't even looked into the mods yet, and while I am sure there is one out there I would be happier with I didn't even think to look as I was enjoying Vanilla so much. All I would improve, is the economy system which I think is a bit too simple. The MP is a good feature if you have a good friend to play with and I think it shows S2 is going to be something special (please don't jinx it).

Am I the only one who has always used mods but followed up with vanilla flavoured Napoleon? I think all the bashers after Empire should give them maybe another chance, especially now they are (thank god) ditched the huge scale and (yawn) gunpowder battles.

vanilla napoleon is still way too underfeatured (especially in the way of unit variety, actually more underfeatured than Empire), and the AI is decidedly lacking both in campaigns and in battle.
Sure, there are less annoying bugs than in empire, but this has been achieved by making the game much more streamlined (read: dumbed down), and much, much smaller in scope. Which isn't exactly something I'd define a good thing.

Originally Posted by Abriael

vanilla napoleon is still way too underfeatured (especially in the way of unit variety, actually more underfeatured than Empire)

Uh, what? The French probably have double the units they have in Empire, and the Prussians don't lack units either. British units lack the variety but overall it's a good trade off. Minor countries do lack unit variety, true, but the French and Prussians and Russians fighting off are much more interesting.

Sure, there are less annoying bugs than in empire, but this has been achieved by making the game much more streamlined (read: dumbed down), and much, much smaller in scope. Which isn't exactly something I'd define a good thing.

I disagree heavily here. It's more streamlined because of the nature of the Napoleonic Wars, nobody had time for petty disputes over colonial lands, it was more of recruit the troops and fight. Hell, even the British Government started agreeing on many issues during that time.

Yet here I am loading up Napoleon and I realised, this is the only TW game I've ever truly been content with without a mod. I haven't even looked into the mods yet, and while I am sure there is one out there I would be happier with I didn't even think to look as I was enjoying Vanilla so much. All I would improve, is the economy system which I think is a bit too simple. The MP is a good feature if you have a good friend to play with and I think it shows S2 is going to be something special (please don't jinx it).

Spot on. NTW is the first game TW I have enjoyed greatly without any mods since the days of MTW.

Originally Posted by Basileos Leandros I

Uh, what? The French probably have double the units they have in Empire, and the Prussians don't lack units either. British units lack the variety but overall it's a good trade off. Minor countries do lack unit variety, true, but the French and Prussians and Russians fighting off are much more interesting.

Too bad that everyone else's variety is a complete pittance, and many nations that played a major role during the napoleonic wars aren't even playable (five playable nations in a conflict that involved more than 25? just lol), with the result that their armies completely lack in variety, fidelity and are massively boring to even play against.

I disagree heavily here. It's more streamlined because of the nature of the Napoleonic Wars, nobody had time for petty disputes over colonial lands, it was more of recruit the troops and fight. Hell, even the British Government started agreeing on many issues during that time.

That sounds like a nice excuse, too bad it's entirely false. Aren't we forgetting the second anglo-maratha war? The russo-persian war? The war against Haiti? The wars in south america between Britain and Spain and quite a few wars of independence there? The anglo-dutch java war? The War of 1812 between britain and the US? The first and the second barbary wars?
Sorry but no, almost every power involved in the napoleonic wars had a LOT of time for "petty disputes over colonial lands", and most of those "Petty disputes" had quite an effect on the outcome of the napoleonic wars.
As a simulation of the napoleonic wars, napoleon total war essentially fails because it fails to represent all the resources and men that were spent by colonial powers to fight across the ocean.

It also takes a lot away from the depth of the game. Easy to make less mistakes, when the game is also half as big.

This of course without even mentioning the complete lack of actual evolution over empire. Same engine, almost the same AI, a crapton of recycled models that have just been reskinned (and in many cases not even reskinned)...
Let's be honest here, Napoleon is nothing more than an expansion pack sold as a full game. It's still a pretty good game, but no way I would have purchased it full price.

Spot on. NTW is the first game TW I have enjoyed greatly without any mods since the days of MTW.

You are easily pleased

Originally Posted by Abriael

That sounds like a nice excuse, too bad it's entirely false. Aren't we forgetting the second anglo-maratha war? The russo-persian war? The war against Haiti? The wars in south america between Britain and Spain and quite a few wars of independence there? The anglo-dutch java war? The War of 1812 between britain and the US? The first and the second barbary wars?

Compared to the threat of Napoleon they had a negligible effect. Ok, maybe I give you the War of 1812 but that's it. It actually had an impact because the British had to divert men and resources towards defending Canada. Russo Persian war was more of a training ground for Russia rather than a proper war.

Sorry but no, almost every power involved in the napoleonic wars had a LOT of time for "petty disputes over colonial lands", and most of those "Petty disputes" had quite an effect on the outcome of the napoleonic wars.

How did they have any effect? The bulk of their resources went towards the war in Europe itself, just because they fought wars with their already existing troops in the colonies that doesn't mean it had an impact on the Napoleonic Wars themselves. Except 1812.

As a simulation of the napoleonic wars, napoleon total war essentially fails because it fails to represent all the resources and men that were spent by colonial powers to fight across the ocean.

They spent 10% of their resources on the colonies. When it comes to a game like Napoleon the amount is negligible and would result in unbalance. The focus were the Napoleonic Wars themselves, not whatever had an impact on them.

You are easily pleased

No. RTW, M2TW, ETW and NTW combined don't live up to the sheer awesomeness that MTW is. But for the amount of money I paid for the super exclusive edition of NTW (19 pounds), it offers me great fun. If I paid 50 pounds for it and got that, then hell yes, I would be pissed. But in this case, no. Good value for the money.

Originally Posted by Basileos Leandros I

Compared to the threat of Napoleon they had a negligible effect. Ok, maybe I give you the War of 1812 but that's it. It actually had an impact because the British had to divert men and resources towards defending Canada. Russo Persian war was more of a training ground for Russia rather than a proper war.
<snip>
How did they have any effect? The bulk of their resources went towards the war in Europe itself, just because they fought wars with their already existing troops in the colonies that doesn't mean it had an impact on the Napoleonic Wars themselves. Except 1812.
<snip>
They spent 10% of their resources on the colonies. When it comes to a game like Napoleon the amount is negligible and would result in unbalance. The focus were the Napoleonic Wars themselves, not whatever had an impact on them.

Sorry, but that's rather bull you're basing your estimate on how many resources went to the colonies (and came from the colonies) on absolutely nothing. And most if not all the wars I mentioned are rather relevant. Mind you, the 1812 one is one of the least relevant between them all.
Just to make an example, spain had to face a long stretch of independence wars during the Napoleonic war, and that's one of the reasons why they couldn't properly support Napoleon. In NTW they're entirely free to help Napoleon with the whole of their forces and resources (and that's why people have so many problems holding Gibraltar when playing the UK).

No. RTW, M2TW, ETW and NTW combined don't live up to the sheer awesomeness that MTW is. But for the amount of money I paid for the super exclusive edition of NTW (19 pounds), it offers me great fun. If I paid 50 pounds for it and got that, then hell yes, I would be pissed. But in this case, no. Good value for the money.

yeah, you forget that CA and Sega released it full price. The fact that many got it at a discount later doesn't cancel that they sold an expansion pack that's actually WAY smaller than the original and doesn't feature much of an evolution for the full price of a game.
It's completely unsurprising that many look at S2TW with a very jaded eye.

Yet here I am loading up Napoleon and I realised, this is the only TW game I've ever truly been content with without a mod. I haven't even looked into the mods yet, and while I am sure there is one out there I would be happier with I didn't even think to look as I was enjoying Vanilla so much.

Took the words out of my bally mouth old thing, truly. CA appealed to me in a way it never has before with NTW, and for some confounded reason I find it very hard to remain upset with CA for the Empire debacle after the release of Nappy's brilliance (which asides from AI - which I barely notice as I play all my campaigns online) has me in the happiest of conditions.

Am I the only one who has always used mods but followed up with vanilla flavoured Napoleon? I think all the bashers after Empire should give them maybe another chance, especially now they are (thank god) ditched the huge scale and (yawn) gunpowder battles.

You are not alone sah! If it were not for mods such as Darth's I fear I too would've abandoned Empire, but while mods such as LME and TROM2 have been catching my eye of late, they are in no way needed to keep me interested and enthralled by NTW.

Although I prefer gunpowder to melee warfare, and I personally believe Shogun will not appeal too much to myself, I am sure for the more die-hard fans of the classic TW games, it will be a breathe of fresh air in what has been a disappointing series of releases.

But I get ahead of myself, perhaps we should wait until shogun is out before we sing its praises, eh wot?

I enjoyed Empire, strangely. I racked up around 150 hours of vanilla play before going for some mods (never understood Darthmod or where to install it).

Napoleon is great too! I think some people give CA's new releases a bit too much criticism, seeing as there are very few games out there that compete with the standard of Total War games.

I also enjoy musket battles more than melee combat. I don't take any joy from getting close up and watching the action, but that's because my computer's not that great at running it at high specs. Nevertheless, I wont complain about Shogun, it may well be good.

229 hours in Empire (at least half that time is without mods). I was more than happy to play the vanilla game after the first patches removed the worst CTD feasts. It probably helped that my home country Sweden was included with voices and everything for the first time in TW history

Now, Napoleon I really think had a great ground. I play with mod (EiC) mainly just because I like those extra units that I can play around with...apart from that, I almost want to play vanilla...I think the AI in mods is way to aggressive for me (I'm a casual strategy gamer...I rather like to take my time, and slowly eliminate my foes).

I think I may try Rights of Man 2 when I get my desktop back.

I do find gunpowder battles ok at times, certainly not too bad, but melee combat is a) much easier on the AI, b) much more interesting strategically half the time and c) damn site better to watch (when the PC doesn't turn them all into spirites)

Originally Posted by RazorbackII

This is mainly my opinion, but today I realised something.

Everybody criticises the fact that Empire was... a bit of a flop first time around and this seems to carry through onto the worries about TW:S2 in that forum, I even see myself thinking this from time to time. However, this shows a lot of people perhaps overlooking Napoleon.

Now Rome was a good game, no doubt there. I played vanilla, enjoyed it, didn't regret my purchase but what happened is that I ended up playing one of the fantastic mods available for it. I settled on SPQR as for me, I liked the feeling of huge armies moving around.

I bloody loved M2, really really did and Kingdoms only seemed to improve it. But nowadays I enjoy a bit of Stainless Steel as I think the mod perfects the game again for my playstyle.

Empire I barely gave much of a chance. I played it, felt the scale was too large, didn't enjoy it and stopped after about 2 weeks. Came back and what made me want to play, DarthMod.

Yet here I am loading up Napoleon and I realised, this is the only TW game I've ever truly been content with without a mod. I haven't even looked into the mods yet, and while I am sure there is one out there I would be happier with I didn't even think to look as I was enjoying Vanilla so much. All I would improve, is the economy system which I think is a bit too simple. The MP is a good feature if you have a good friend to play with and I think it shows S2 is going to be something special (please don't jinx it).

Am I the only one who has always used mods but followed up with vanilla flavoured Napoleon? I think all the bashers after Empire should give them maybe another chance, especially now they are (thank god) ditched the huge scale and (yawn) gunpowder battles.

I support you there Brother. NTW is the first TW game I like as vanilla. I used to overdose myself with mods before now enjoy the plain NTW! Hurray for CA!

I actually find empire better becaus eof its larger setting, the reason i enjoy but napolean is not my facourite is that 1 the setting is too small for this time period and there is really only 1 way to play this game, i would love a mod where everyone started neutral.

success as defined in today's software industry is number of sales. bottom line.

Funnily enough, ETW constantly has double the players NTW has if you look at the Steam stats.