Consulate of Septimus and Scaeva - 541AVC

[War lord]

No,our presence in Tingi is illegal as it stands.

[Maiar93]

OOC: Remember, that nobody during ancient era cared about the human rights, war lord... so act historically, please..
"Illegal"?!

How many times have they "illegally" raided our lands, shed roman blood, exterminated our cities? Do i have to remind you of the time when men and wives shouted "Hannibal ante portas"? Have you faced the horror that the carthaginians unleashed on us, when they still had an able general to lead them? If you have, i don't know a reason for your words. Do you honor Carthage and think of them as our equals, senator?

[War lord]

OOC:It's not about human rights Maiar,the Romans had strict laws in their constitution about when it was ok to wage war,one of these was that wars had to be: A: In defense of Rome or B: To defend an ally of Rome.

And would you have us sink to their level?

[Maiar93]

Destroying their military infastructure (OOC:BARRACKS) would not be a "sink to their level" They destroyed cities completely. In this case, we would only destroy the buildings they need to raise an army against us. Is that a right you think Carthage should be able to keep? To raise an army against us, to lay even more waste on roman lands?

[War lord]

That is not what you were advocating Corvenus.

You wished to burn the entire city to the ground,a city that we have no rightful claim to in the first place.

[Maiar93]

Were you in sleep, or why did you not hear my words? Scribe! A scribe ran to Titus, carrying the past conversations with him. Could you show senator Caldius the part..yes, that one..

If i may address the Senate on the matters in Spain...

My brother, while perhaps too passionate on the destruction of Carthage, had taken careful scouting measures of the area around Tingi and beyond. It will be some time before a Carthaginian force can reach Tingi by land. However, unrest is indeed the largest problem facing the settlements in Iberia. To prevent Carthage from retrieving their former lands in the process, i suggest we burn all Carthaginian military infrastructure immediatley. Punic ways of war are not those of Rome..they are useless to us, but beneficial to Carthage should they retake the facilities. Burn them...lest the people rise up and arm themselves - Flavius Julius Constantinus

And again, this young man finds a solution probably most of us didn't even consider. I support this idea with my very heart. Well? Shall we try out his strategy? - Titus Flaminius Corvenus

[War lord]

And what is this?

We could always burn the place completely down, sack it, and leave it for anyone to take...it would not have much in it then, after all..

[Maiar93]

Titus thought:
Everything has to be explained to this senator..

Senator, i have changed my stance from the one it was.. you should also keep in mind that before making accusations against me you should know my motives well. I was thinking of what to do to the city.. and came up with the most profitable way. Now, of course, there are better ways..

Titus said the last words with a slightly cold voice, but he managed to keep the authoritative tone.

Now let us discuss the matter of Carthage instead of unleashing poisonous words against each other: it is a matter we all need to discuss urgently.

[AspisPhalanx90]

Constantinus stands, very much irritated
Enough of this! What are you two accomplishing by this bickering? bringing down each others character? throwing mud at one another? you two are Senators of Rome! There is no need for this. Please, why call each other Gauls or barbarians? What does it accomplish? Flaminius, i understand you are defending your honor, but that is no excuse to swing back. You are an elder senator, I would like to think you can handle such insults without getting emotional enough to throw them back and fueling the fire. You have every right to defend your honor...but please Senator, not during this debate. Not during a matter of utmost importance.

And you Senator Caldius,what does your argument accomplish? You have passion, i applaud that, much as i myself do. But do not be like my brother. Do not let your emotions take charge and soil your prestigious reputation. Insulting character is not what is needed. The statements are in the past. Let us move on Senators..both of you. The matter at hand is Tingi. Clearly Senator Corvenus has, upon hearing a secondary solution, changed his mind....his prior comments are of no consequence now anymore. Perhaps later yes, but not now. So Senators, i ask you both to speak up, without judging one anothers suggestions....what do YOU EACH feel we should do about Tingi?

Constantinus stood quiet, calmed and collected after his initial anger, now friendly and open, awaiting the replies of the senators to see if perhaps his young voice had gotten through..."well, it was worth a shot" he thought to himself..

[Maiar93]

It is my passion too what makes me to defend myself like this, senator.. and it may just become worse and worse when i get older, Constantinus. But apologize the old man's folly speech, now let us discuss Tingi and the way we should treat it..

I'd feel most comfortable to deal Tingi like you said, senator Constantinus, to tear down their military infastructure and then leave it for the carthaginians, leaving them unable to recruit troops from there at the same time. We eliminate the carthaginian threat and gain a few extra denarii without hurting the population; a compromise i like.

[Nota']

Why leave it for the Carthaginians to take when we can make them pay for it?
Personally I think it will take more to bring Carthage to the bartering table, perhaps we should liberate Numidia first? Or maybe leave them will nothing but their city. As I see it Carthage still has hope, and it should be our objective to remove hope from them. Only then we should move to the bartering table!

Make her our vassal, station a legion or two there for her 'protection', and to insure she never rises again!

[War lord]

We should not have entered Tingi in the first place,it was an illegal attack to further a personal vendetta.

Our forces are needed in Greece to liberate our Greek Allys from the Macedonian tyrants.

[Maiar93]

I agree with senator Caldius here. Only garrisons are to be left to Spain while we ship the remainder of the legion to Greece while Consul Scaeva begins his campaign against the Boii and other barbarians occupying Northern Italy.

[chaplain118]

The Boii? Why are we warring against the Boii? They are not of the same blood as the Gauls that have sacked Rome, the Gauls of Brennus. These are men who have lived at peace with us for the greater part of centuries. Yet we are to go to war with them, unprovoked?

Tell me, Conscript Fathers, what reasons do we have, what concrete reasons do we have for a war against the Boii? Have they made an attack upon us? Have they blocked our trade, assaulted our lands, harassed our people? Can we justify this new war before the gods? Do you dare to say that a war against the Boii is not only ordained but even sanctioned by the gods. I call upon the Tribune to veto this proposal. We are already fighting a war in Macedonia, the lands of Rome and her allies are slowly being bled dry by the presence of their men in the armies. Yet you would send more men away, more men to fight in distant lands.

If the Boii attack us, if they should bring war to us, then we will return the assault a hundredfold, but we will not make strike the first blow, we will not act as warmongering barbarians!

[AspisPhalanx90]

I agree with Senator Scaurus. The boii have done us no wrong. If we are to expand northwards, it should be towards the cities of Mediolanum and others held by unaffiliated Gallic tribes, not those who have been organized and unified. I also would like to propose a full withdrawal from Tingi, to form a defensive line at Gadir. Those who have been at the Greek front should be of better position to advise us on the situation there. In that regards, i suggest writing to Governor Pallas to ask for his counsel.

[Maiar93]

Forgive my folly talk. I recall that consul Scaeva was preparing a campaign to take Northern Italy. Please inform me if this has changed. It would be bad to be the only mis-informed senator in the Curia..

[Nota']

Scarus, there has been no motion to attack the Boii. The allied legion is returning to Italy, to await further instructions. It has been my intention to propose a campaign to take the northern settlements, although of course this campaign will not go ahead if the senate blocks it. The target of this campaign are the individual tribes of north italy and Cisalpine Gaul. It is these tribes that are in an unofficial state of war with all civilised people, they are comprised of farmers and raiders. That said we need not fear them at the moment, but I fear for what might happen if a larger nation takes that area, or the tribes unite against us to form a rival state to Rome. These tribes are allies to no one, and taking their lands will provide more taxes to Rome, rich farm lands, allows us to defend the natural fortification that are the alps. Imagine how much harder it would be for hannibal to pass through those moutains if he was harrased and blocked at every step? I shall put forward a motion to attack the alps when the legion arrives. At this moment it is not a major issue.

[chaplain118]

A messenger enters the halls

Conscript Fathers, I bring news from Macedonia, where Senator Pallas Rutulus Aventinus has repelled the enemy invasion force

Conscript Fathers, I have spotted, to the east of Dyrrhacium, a small contingent of Macedonian forces. It would seem that the followers of Antigonus would not allow us to be at peace and as such, they have sent their forces towards us once more.



However, reports from our more astute allies in Macedon also led to a shocking discovery: an enemy spy was within less than eighty miles of Dyrrhacium. No doubt the spy and the force from the east are working together, hoping to engage us, learn of our tactics, and then report back to their masters further East. Or failing that, they perhaps hoped to gain information about our strengths, weaknesses, and troop deployments. Unwilling to risk the possibility, I set forth with the Italian allies that you have sent me as well as Quintus Minucius' troops of allied skirmishers who proved more than valuable in the previous battle.



But, Conscript Fathers, you have sent me men who were better fed than better trained. These men are fat, unatheletic, and incapable of performing any rigorous deed even if a knife were to be held to their throats. They tire themselves by marching, they bemoan any physical hardship. Were it not for Dyrrhacium's dependency on these men to serve her defense, I would've crucified them long ago for their lack of military discipline.

But enough of my rants about the Italians, I'm sure you are expecting more from me. Very well, I shall now endeavor to tell you about the progress of the battle as well as my requests.

The first line of infantry, led by none other than Q. Min. Fidenas, moved forward towards the enemy, hoping to engage them head on.


However, we were not granted that luxury. The enemy refused to move, refused to engage us, even when we pressed them with the body of the full army.



As such, I had little choice but to let the men engage the enemy through missile volleys, hoping to decimate the enemy by means of missile before closing the ranks. Unfortunately, such a tactic would not hold the day.



Therefore, I ordered several cohorts to flank the sides of the enemy, knowing that they were follow arrayed in a phalanx and thus too concerned with their front. This would prove to be their undoing. I soon ordered a general charge for the infantry facing the enemy and the battle was soon underway.



Meanwhile, I order the infantry that have flanked the enemy to let loose their pila



I myself led the charge into the enemy's rear after the initial missile fire.



This led to an utter route. In panic, the enemy general attempted to flee, only to be hunted down like an animal and killed on the battlefield.



We carried the day, though our losses were extreme due to the well-supplied nature of the enemy as well as the unfit conditions of the soldiers.



But Conscript Fathers, I have further news. There was a man who returned after the slaughter bearing a token of surrender. When we have let him into our camp, he fell to his knees and pledged fealty to me, recognizing that the nearby Poleis will fall into order under a Roman banner than an Antigonid one



But what I found from him was not simply Macedonian military doctrine and tactics, but a disturbing information. The invading army that was marching only twenty-five days behind the scouting force was comprised of largely elite soldiers led by a competent general. Senators, I am now asking you humbly to let me pursue him and engage him in battle. To cut the Macedonian general down before he becomes a visible threat will mean that we can achieve a decisive blow against the Antigonids. Do return with information as soon as possible.

Pallas Rutulus Aventinus

[Crozimodo]

The Tribune stands, aside from the recent use of his veto he had been quiet and out of sync with much of the Senate debates,

Scaeva himself states that for now we have no need to fear the tribes to the North, Pallas has proven himself an incredibly able and resourceful general. For the tribes to unite in the North and form a force capable of worrying us will take them sometime, moreover the Boii confederation will help to keep them in check. For now I suggest that we focus what forces we can spare to aid Pallas in the east.

I therefore propose the following:

I. The allied legion that is soon to land in Italy is to be sent to Pallas to aid him in a punitive campaign to reach the Macedonian capital.
II. Upon reaching the capital the Macedonians shall be offered terms of peace that are beneficial to Rome.
III. Should he not reach the capital during his time as governor the successive governor should take his place.

Let the Macedonians feel Roman arms and tremble at our might, reduce their Kingdom to ashes. Scaeva points out that the lands to the North will be of both economic value and strategic value, we should not spread ourselves too thin, wound the Macedonian beast and assimilate the uncivilised tribes to the North following the Macedonian surrender.

[Royal_McKeogh]

I feel the need to remind the senate that the carthaginiansstill have the naval capabilityto land troops on italy, and possibly attack our city. The macedonians do not as they are currently at war with greece.