Conversion to Communism in the face of Recession?

[Conchúir]

Dia Dhuit, Well recently my friends and I started talking about communism in todays world. I found that people both young and old have stereotypes about communism that are complete fabrications and I discovered that communism is scorned as an Utopian ideology.

On the contrary I can't see evidence of capitalism working in todays society at all? I live in a small Irish village and most of the adults between 18-35 are unemployed, in financial difficulty and under severe stress due to the fact that they are borrowing heavily just to keep a roof over their families heads.

Surely communism would serve for a better life?

The idea of a system without class or material possessions would allow all those suffering from the recession to be freed from mortgages and bills and allow them to focus on improving their community and working hard to achieve a common goal instead of being a slave to money, at least I would have assumed so?

Naturally the transition to communism would be gradual .. No-one can expect instant rewards.. but after seeing honest hard-working men brought to their knees by a need for money I am really after warming to the idea of communism...

Has any one else witnessed this, does anyone feel the need for change, and is communism a viable alternative??

[Yoda Twin]

Do you like lots of dead bodies?

[dogukan]

Communism is always a good alternative

Do you like lots of dead bodies?

here is another stereotype which is completely irrevelant

Communism is scorned as a utopian, anti-human nature ideology which can only lead to repression and misery.

Like today's world is really different

And yet you are on a computer with access to the entire planet. That in itself is evidence of capitalism working today.

What does that have anything to do with capitalism? :S

[Phier]

What does that have anything to do with capitalism? :S

You have a communications network across the planet, with a very high tech piece of eq.

Capitalism is why you would have both, even in a 'poor' fishing village.

I got an idea, why don't you IM a Cuban friend and see how their internet access is

[dogukan]

You have a communications network across the planet, with a very high tech piece of eq.

Capitalism is why you would have both, even in a 'poor' fishing village.

I got an idea, why don't you IM a Cuban friend and see how their internet access is

The only thing related to capitalism in this is "high tech" part...also, it is an Irish "poor" village, the country that has one of the highest GDP PP in the world. Why doN't you look for the rest of the world's poor villages?

[Vanoi]

Better dead than Red.

[Dan the Man]

here is another stereotype which is completely irrevelant

Consider that every time the communist system has been attempted to be reached there has been a death toll as a result of it. Now consider the definition of a stereotype: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=definition+of+stereotype
Now, if you couldn't be bothered to follow the link, the definition of stereotype as a noun according to dictionary.com is as follows: "a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group: The cowboy and Indian are American stereotypes."
As a verb: "to give a fixed form to."
You can't standardize, give a fixed form to, or simplify an event that has happened 100% of the time because it's already simplified, in fixed form, and standardized.
Conclusion: Neither a stereotype nor irrelevant.

Now that that's done, to the OP:

Has any one else witnessed this

Of course not, because it's never happened.
Anyway, all of what you have said is, of course, assuming everybody wants to work together in the system, which is basically an impossibility, even from the most optimistic point of view. Considering the main idea of communism is Marx's famous quote "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," what stops somebody from getting lazy and/or greedy (as we humans tend to do) and claiming that he needs more than he can give back, while another man, to make up for his neighbor's selfishness, is forced to take less than his need and put in more than he is able. Basically, the communist ideal depends on people to be purely honest and caring towards their fellow man which, history would prove, we usually aren't. Human sociology has never changed and will never change. You can make your transition into communism as slow as you want, but it won't work. I apologize for my cynicism, but I will not be optimistic towards something that has never proven itself worthy of optimism.

[Platon]

Anyway, all of what you have said is, of course, assuming everybody wants to work together in the system, which is basically an impossibility, even from the most optimistic point of view. Considering the main idea of communism is Marx's famous quote "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," what stops somebody from getting lazy and/or greedy (as we humans tend to do) and claiming that he needs more than he can give back, while another man, to make up for his neighbor's selfishness, is forced to take less than his need and put in more than he is able. Basically, the communist ideal depends on people to be purely honest and caring towards their fellow man which, history would prove, we usually aren't. Human sociology has never changed and will never change. You can make your transition into communism as slow as you want, but it won't work. I apologize for my cynicism, but I will not be optimistic towards something that has never proven itself worthy of optimism.

First, since you're into quotes. I noticed that you are an orthodox-christian. This must mean that you believe in Jesus Christ..no?
One time a rich man ask Jesus what he should do to inherit eternal life. And Jesus replied:
“There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Now, does this mean anything at all to you?



And now about human nature. The humans have lived hundred thousands of years in societies where everyone helped eachother and where greed and self interest were unknown and unwanted in the community. That stopped of cource when the first smartass build a fence around a piece of land and claimed it was his exclusively.
Humans are perfectly capable of living in that kind of societiy again. We actually already do - in the family. Thats why when your Mom ask you to take out the garbage you don't say: "Sure Mom, that'll be five bucks".. because you know your dad would probably give you a slap in the face and lecture you.
Now imagine what kind of a society we would live in if you treat everyone like you treat your family?
Those lazy or greedy you talk about would find it very hard to survive in te long run.

The constant increase of the psychological unhealthiness in our world derives from the inequality and the individualistic system we live in. Our system creates more sickness, unemployment, drug addicts, divorces and so on.. and we see more and more apathy all around.

[Dan the Man]

First, since you're into quotes. I noticed that you are an orthodox-christian. This must mean that you believe in Jesus Christ..no?
One time a rich man ask Jesus what he should do to inherit eternal life. And Jesus replied:
“There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Now, does this mean anything at all to you?

Of course it does!
What it means to me, and anybody with a real understanding of scripture, is that God should be put before wealth. What Jesus is saying is that, to truly follow Him, you must be willing to give up everything (including the non-monetary things about life) to serve God. The Bible is a lot less literal, and a lot more symbolic, than you seem to take it for.

And now about human nature. The humans have lived hundred thousands of years in societies where everyone helped eachother and where greed and self interest were unknown and unwanted in the community. That stopped of cource when the first smartass build a fence around a piece of land and claimed it was his exclusively.

When did we ever live in a society like this?

Humans are perfectly capable of living in that kind of societiy again. We actually already do - in the family. Thats why when your Mom ask you to take out the garbage you don't say: "Sure Mom, that'll be five bucks".. because you know your dad would probably give you a slap in the face and lecture you.

But the difference there is because there is an actual bond between father and son, mother and daughter, husband and wife, etc etc. What you're asking for is for everybody to treat everybody else like family. This sounds pretty nice, admittedly, but it's a far off dream in the long run. It's kinda hard to view somebody you don't even know as family, that's part of why, for all of the charities organized to help the less fortunate, we have the problem of worldwide poverty in the first place. People lose sympathy for a cause because they cannot see it.
Even so, this is a very idealistic view of the standard family. As you say later in this post, divorce is quite rampant. The classic nuclear family, parents and children living happily in the same household, isn't exactly as common an occurrence as it once was.

Those lazy or greedy you talk about would find it very hard to survive in te long run.

What exactly are you suggesting would become of such people, cut them off and let them starve because they won't conform? That seems quite the opposite of what a communist society would attempt to achieve...

The constant increase of the psychological unhealthiness in our world derives from the inequality and the individualistic system we live in. Our system creates more sickness, unemployment, drug addicts, divorces and so on.. and we see more and more apathy all around.

I'd more attribute all of this to a lack of morality than somebody making more money and being more economically successful than somebody else.

[Rolling Thunder]

So...

"The current system has some bad externalities. Some people experience poverty, debt, and a poor quality of life."

"Let's make everyone experience this!"

[Jingles]

Has any one else witnessed this, does anyone feel the need for change, and is communism a viable alternative??

*raises hand*

You're right on most accounts, so congratulations for being one of the few that sees through the sordid facade of capitalism. Or rather, condolences, since for that to happen you usually have to end up on the rough side of the system.

Other posters will probably raise the hue and cry now and start blustering about "freedom" and how communists are all murderers and such. Don't pay any attention to them - find out about communism for yourself. I can PM you a list of online books and stuff if you like.

[Saturn]

*raises hand*

You're right on most accounts, so congratulations for being one of the few that sees through the sordid facade of capitalism. Or rather, condolences, since for that to happen you usually have to end up on the rough side of the system.

Other posters will probably raise the hue and cry now and start blustering about "freedom" and how communists are all murderers and such. Don't pay any attention to them - find out about communism for yourself. I can PM you a list of online books and stuff if you like.

So, for simply disagreeing with the communists, I'm automatically a capitalist? When did this happen?

[Phier]

Communism is scorned as a utopian, anti-human nature ideology which can only lead to repression and misery.

On the contrary I can't see evidence of capitalism working in todays society at all? I live in a small Irish village and most of the adults between 18-35 are unemployed, in financial difficulty and under severe stress due to the fact that they are borrowing heavily just to keep a roof over their families heads.

And yet you are on a computer with access to the entire planet. That in itself is evidence of capitalism working today.

Surely communism would serve for a better life?

The idea of a system without class or material possessions would allow all those suffering from the recession to be freed from mortgages and bills and allow them to focus on improving their community and working hard to achieve a common goal instead of being a slave to money, at least I would have assumed so?

Naturally the transition to communism would be gradual .. No-one can expect instant rewards.. but after seeing honest hard-working men brought to their knees by a need for money I am really after warming to the idea of communism...

Has any one else witnessed this, does anyone feel the need for change, and is communism a viable alternative??

Surely? Why Surely? The economy is in the dumps, the Irish one worse than many, and surely a system which has a long and glorious history of failure, repression and murder will be a better life?

Whats stopping your village from going communism right now? You can all work together for the common good this very moment! Go, rally them!

[Jingles]

And yet you are on a computer with access to the entire planet. That in itself is evidence of capitalism working today.

Difficult to argue with that. Since really when capitalism appears to be broken, it's actually WAD. Which is why it's such an absurd system.

[Lord de Lyonesse]

To be honest, I think Anarcho-Syndalism may be the best approach for a small country like Ireland to work upon. I cite Anarchist Catalonia as an example..

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Yet here in Ireland, in the middle of a terrible recession (not the worst in our history btw), graduates of mechanical engineering and carious bio/chemical/pharmaceutical companies can get jobs immediately.

The recession is mostly Bertie Aherns fault. He lied and was the most corrupt politician in Irish history, he built upon a false construction/speculation boom, and when he was warned by both the opposition and economists of the inevitable collapse, he told them to go commit suicide.

Bertia Ahern should be in jail for what he did, how he got away I don't know, but that's what happened.

[intel]

On the contrary I can't see evidence of capitalism working in todays society at all? I live in a small Irish village and most of the adults between 18-35 are unemployed, in financial difficulty and under severe stress due to the fact that they are borrowing heavily just to keep a roof over their families heads.

Get a work in Britain, send money home.

Surely communism would serve for a better life?

By making it definetly for everyone else? There are no free meals. And it looks like for yours village problems, the solution is "Yay, communism!", magically creating jobs, giving money and all. If only communism was as magical as it sounds there...

The idea of a system without class or material possessions would allow all those suffering from the recession to be freed from mortgages and bills and allow them to focus on improving their community and working hard to achieve a common goal instead of being a slave to money, at least I would have assumed so?

System without material possession= not an utopian ideology? Oh well, again, there are no free meals, and your vision of communism basically revolves around the idea that free meals exist.

Naturally the transition to communism would be gradual .. No-one can expect instant rewards.. but after seeing honest hard-working men brought to their knees by a need for money I am really after warming to the idea of communism...

Try praying to god, it is similiar in most basic aspects.


Gives false hope and raises expectancies? Yes. Is unneffective and dissapointing? Yes.

Has any one else witnessed this, does anyone feel the need for change, and is communism a viable alternative??

We Poles experienced attempts at communism. And we were dissatisfied with the results. Just like, well, about half of Europe.

[dogukan]

Nobody said there is free meal.
Communism is not laying your ass whole day...and believe me, there revolutions in Eastern Europe against Soviets was far more socialist in their nature. Poland didnt experince communism, it wasn't communism which screwed your country. Thats not communism, do you even know what it is?

"
Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, and the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.[1]
In Marxist theory, communism is a specific stage of historical development that inevitably emerges from the development of the productive forces that leads to a superabundance of material wealth, allowing for distribution based on need and social relations based on freely-associated individuals."

Was this the case? State, class, who owned the means of prodcution?
Yet you still come up with the same BS, Poland was never communist. Are we clear on that?

[intel]

Nobody said there is free meal.
Communism is not laying your ass whole day...and believe me, there revolutions in Eastern Europe against Soviets was far more socialist in their nature. Poland didnt experince communism, it wasn't communism which screwed your country. Thats not communism, do you even know what it is?

"
Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, and the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.[1]
In Marxist theory, communism is a specific stage of historical development that inevitably emerges from the development of the productive forces that leads to a superabundance of material wealth, allowing for distribution based on need and social relations based on freely-associated individuals."

Was this the case? State, class, who owned the means of prodcution?
Yet you still come up with the same BS, Poland was never communist. Are we clear on that?

Read my post again. Repeat.

Sorry, but I don't really have time to argue with retarded arguments. I said clearly "attempts at communism". No true scotsman fallacy also doesn't move me in a slightest, so when you come with actual related and logically comprehensive argument you can have a discussion with me.

[dogukan]

Read my post again. Repeat.

Sorry, but I don't really have time to argue with retarded arguments. I said clearly "attempts at communism". No true scotsman fallacy also doesn't move me in a slightest, so when you come with actual related and logically comprehensive argument you can have a discussion with me.

Yeah well, it was not an attempt at communism. States do not attempt at communism, people does. Like in Egypt. If tomorrow people in Egypt forms their own couincils where they demoractically decide everything(they did in Tunisia), continue giving healtcare/protection bythemselves, take over factories and produce everything themselves again by deciding democratically...than that would be an attempt at communism.

Going by the Marxist philosophy, Polish protestors who got rid of USSR were much more socialist since it was actually a movement of the PEOPLE. SO was the Hungarian rebellion of 50s.

This is a very basic and simple, core part of Marxism and yet nobody even knows this. *sigh*
Its not Stalins moustache and unifrom, the flag with red star. It is the people!