Divus
'English' Empire
this thread split out from the 'anti-american' thread, please continue.....
Um, excuse me? No British Empire? Hang on a second...Originally Posted by Himnim
*goes over to world map, stops. Remembers doesn't need a map. Shakes head.*
What? No British Empire? You really have me lost now...
Last edited by Tacticalwithdrawal; January 26, 2006 at 07:19 AM.
Yes it would seem it does not take much to get you lost, I will tell you what, i will let you think about it for a wee while then i will come back and see if you realize.
Where you one of the US people who thought Iraq was in Australia?
Ghost
He said ENGLISH, not BRITISH. Very different things. Never has been an English empire, has been a British empire.
:- It's my smilie and I'll use it if I want to......
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Ave Caesar, Morituri Nolumus Mori (in Glaswegian: gae **** yrsel big man)______________________________________________________________Child of Seleukos, Patron of Rosacrux redux, Polemides, Marcus Scaurus, CaptainCernick, Spiff and Fatsheep
Divus
Ahem.Yes it would seem it does not take much to get you lost, I will tell you what, i will let you think about it for a wee while then i will come back and see if you realize.
Where you one of the US people who thought Iraq was in Australia?
I am sure that Rush Limbaugh meant the British Empire, as most people do not always differentiate. But given that he didn't say English Empire, he said England...
Politically, England is the most dominant nation within the UK, and the parliament in London (dominated by English politicians) was the driving force behind the empire at its height. England did have a thrist for Empire. Are you suggesting that Scotland was the political mover behind the expansion and growth of the empire? Oops, Scotland likes to think of themselves as seperate from England Maybe it was ireland. Right, I forgot again, they were conquered by the English.
He never mentioned an "English Empire." He did say England, which was the ruling and most powerful nation within the UK, and hence it was in large part England's desire for empire.
Being clever with semantics does not give you the right to be smug, why don't you back up some of your claims with something more than an expectation that you are the authority?
Honnęte Homme.
*cough*
Neptune eats planets
Tis correct Tac, never an English Empire - but johnny foreign will often confuse Britain with England, being English i dont really care
No need to be rude about it himnim...
Heir of Kscott
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Finland had unusually little to do with the whole New World gig. - Watchman
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Knight of the Lulz
OK, i don't know what you mean by saying he said England and not the English empire, he referred to the lust for empire of Rome and England, he clearly ment the British empire and while we both may be a little pernickety on this sentence i was simply pointing out his lack of proper description.
Politically yes England is the dominant adjunct within the United kingdom of great Britain.
I guess the jist of what your trying to say is that England was the British empire and had no need for the other 3 countries of the united kingdom nor would there collaboration be needed for there to have been a British(English) empire.
Would that be correct?
""England did have a thrist for empire""
Did it indeed, would you care to point to some ,even, half baked facts or opinions that would give sway to this statement?
I mean certainly just about every country to have ever existed would desire and indeed have a lust for and empire perhaps, but before the union of the crowns between Scotland and England in 1603 when King James the VI of Scotland became king James the I of Enland and Ireland There was no means nor plans for England to expand as an empire. Unless of course you count Englands attempts to conquer Scotland and Ireland, in witch England failed miserably. Or even trying to get a foothold in France,but lets face it, fighting on the shores of France for 100 years hardly constitutes forging an empire.The Stuart kings fail,commence civil war, add in a few rucks with the French and Spanish and then we have the act of union in 1707.
Upon the death of Anne, the distant claims of the elector of Hanover were recognized, and he became king of Great Britain and Ireland as George I. The unwillingness of the Hanoverian kings to rule resulted in the formation by the royal ministers of a cabinet, headed by a prime minister, which directed all public business
And hence forth we do not have an English army or a Scottish army or an Irish army,we have Great Britain.
Now with joined forces the British empire slowly but surely started to draw its shadow over the world.
But forgive me for getting off the point,,what was it again,, oh yes,
"Scotland Ireland and Wales are crap, had nothing to do with the British empire, Englands great your country is crap blah blah , and so on and so forth"
Well somewhere along the way we decided to invent America and The "Scottish Enlightenment" stretched roughly from 1740 to 1790 in witch time Scotland became a center of excellence for learning and produced some of the greatest minds in the world, minds that without question helped to build and expand the British empire way beyond what would be remotely possible without Scotland.
many of its protagonists were academics. Francis Hutcheson, Adam Smith, Thomas Reid and John Millar were professors at the University of Glasgow. Adam Ferguson, Dugald Stewart and William Robertson were at the University of Edinburgh. The universities of Aberdeen and St. Andrews were dominated by their students. But there were also some important figures outside the academy who influenced the course of the dialogue, including Lord Kames, Sir James Steuart, Dr. James Anderson and, above everybody else, the towering figure of David Hume.
The three major areas of concern for Scottish philosophers were moral philosophy, history and economics. In all three, David Hume blazed the way, with the other Scottish philosophers following him in support or in criticism.
In history, the Scots had a tendency to come with meta-sociological accounts of the "natural progress" of civilization. This "natural history" or "conjectural history" approach was initiated by David Hume . Conjectural history took a distinct "stages" form in the hands of Adam Ferguson , John Millar and Adam Smith . Smith, for instance, envisaged history as progressing through four economic stages, attended by political and social structures: a hunting and gathering stage, a pastoral and nomadic stage, a agricultural and feudalist stage and the final commerce and manufacturing stage (which Scotland was now entering). Like Ferguson, Smith placed division of labor and the expansion of commerce as the fundamental driver of history. The efforts of the Scottish school led Voltaire to note that "we look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilization".
The Scottish Enlightenment came to an end in the early 1800s, due largely to the rise of Christian pietism in Scotland. Radical Presbyterian clergymen and Tory politicians.
But There can be no doubt that Scotland had already done so much for the empire.
Least i not forget to mention the part Scotland played in creating your own country, America, %90 of the men who signed your constitution where DIRECTLY descended from Scotland, And unequivocally it was Scotland`s philanthropists and industrialists that helped build your country- Scotland above all others who supported the plight of the American people during its revolution, your best fighting men against the British empire where without a doubt Scottish. Don't foget that it was a good Scotsman that founded your navy(i know perhaps not a point to show how much Scotland built the empire, but i thought you would find it interesting)
during the building of the empire ,here are some particular inventions Scotland gave to the world.
Tarmac
anaesthetics
antisepsis
Bank of England
latent heat
Buicks
chemical bonds
Finger-printing
The alpha chip
Blue lasers
Interferon
The thermometer
Anaesthesia
Morphine
Neon
Helium
penicillin
the decimal point
Encyclopedia Britannica
engineering sciences
fax machines
first cloned mammal
flailing machines
geosciences
golf
hypodermic syringes
Kelvin scale
percussion powder
logarithms
Maxwell's equations
macadamized roads
microwave ovens
colloid chemistry
breech-loading rifle
tubular steel
quinine
Sociology
pneumatic tyres
hollow pipe drainage
radar
paleobiology
polarization
cure for scurvy
King Arthur
Halloween
refrigerators
Neptune
bakelite
iron bridges
solitons
the steam engine
telephones
thermos flasks/dewars
the telegraph
television
the stereotype
sulphuric acid
the steam-hammer
cure for insomnia
paraffin
Whisky
US Navy
Chilean Navy
Economics
Cloud Chamber
Theory of combustion
Video
The kaleidoscope
The photocopier
The lawnmower
Colour photographs
The gas mask
The locomotive
The pedal bicycle
Street lighting
The steam engine
The gravitating compass
to name but a few.
So no my friend, there was no English empire and there would not have been a British one without Scotland,not to mention the other 2 countries that make up th united kingdom of great Britain, nor to mention the military achievements of the Scots under the British flag
Civitate
I sense someone is scottish and a bit sensitive and created an account just to rantThe scots invented the planet Neptune? Cant they also consume the english with fireballs from their eyes and lightning bolts from their arse?
Senator
That list is a joke, right? I REALLY hoope it is...
"Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit." -Oscar Wilde
In 1846, the brilliant mathematician, John Adams, calculated where a hitherto undiscovered planet would be based on the anomalous motion of Uranus around the Sun. Unfortunately, his boss would not allow him the use of the university observatory to confirm his prediction, and he was beaten to the post by the French. That planet is Neptune.
Civitate
I was of course just making fun because you said inventions and then listened Neptune an innocent slip up much like the one that started this whole entire thing with British/English empire
In 1846, the brilliant mathematician, John Adams, calculated where a hitherto undiscovered planet would be based on the anomalous motion of Uranus around the Sun. Unfortunately, his boss would not allow him the use of the university observatory to confirm his prediction, and he was beaten to the post by the French. That planet is Neptune.
Divus
"King Arthur" is the invention of a welshman - Geoffrey of Monmouth, and all modern arthurian legends are based on franco-norman dirivitives of his Historia Regum Britanniae. given the few historical facts found in the legends, if an arthur lived, he was a descendant of Urthur of the Dumnonii. a tribe found in the south of england. this also correlates with Arthur fighting the saxons (who invaded from the south south east of england)
Halloween is a druidic festival celebrated by all celtic tribes - see Samhain
the US navy was founded by an act of the (surprisingly) american congress. if you refer to John Paul Jones, he's only one founder, not "the"
Helium is an element, only god can claim credit for inventing it
i would cite Emile Durkheim (french) as the founder of sociology, the term sociology was first coined by Auguste Comte (also french) and the first book with sociology in its title was by Herbet Spencer (English!). the first sociology department was the University of Chicago School of Sociology, founded by Albion Small (American)
shall i continue?
Arthur legends date back to the 6th Century. They are spread wide across the British mainland from Cornwall to the very northern tip of Scotland. So why go against popular ideology, and put Arthur in Scotland, rather than England or Wales? Because it is more likely that he did in fact come from Scotland.
Here is some of the evidence supporting this idea:
1. The extinct volcano in the centre of Edinburgh, Capital city of Scotland, has been known as Arthur's Seat for centuries.
2. Merlin's Grave is near the River Tweed.
3. Some experts believe that Camelot was based at the ancient Scottish castle of Tantallon, others that Edinburgh was the actual site of Camelot.
4. There has always been some mystery surrounding the burial place of King Arthur, but Scotland has a definite place for his grave, not far south of Edinburgh.
5. There is some evidence that Sir Lancelot was a Pictish warrior, the son of the King of the Lothians. Gareth and Gawain, brothers and both knights of the Round Table, were from Orkney in the far north of Scotland.
6. A mountain named Ben Arthur rises in the hills near Dumbarton.
7. There is a site known as Arthur's Oven near Stirling, and an earthworks called The Round Table.
8. Lanark has Arthur's Fountain.
9. Guinevere is linked to Perth in legend.
10. Angus has Arthur's Fold and Arthur's Stone, and another hill called Arthur's seat.
11. The town of Kincardine has a legendary connection with Mordred.
12. Historians agree that whatever Arthur was, Welsh, Cornish, Scottish, he most certainly was not English. His fame was in fighting against the Angles and the Saxon invaders of ancient Britain.
.
As for the US navy, yes i was reffering to JPJ and your right he was only 1 of the founders and still to this day a Marine honor guard stands duty whenever his crypt is open to the public
...
HALLOWEEN
back hundreds of years ago, in Scotland and Northern England, there was no street lighting, and nothing to light your way home in the countryside when it got dark at 4 pm on the cold afternoon of October 31st. People were scared of the ghosts, witches, and evil spirits that rose from their graves, or hell, to wander abroad on the eve of All Hallows (November 1st - you know - Disney showed it in the scary bit near the end of Fantasia). So folk decided it might be possible to escape the notice of these evil beings if they dressed up like a ghost or a witch themselves on Halloween. That's where the tradition came from - wear a disguise so the ghouls will think you're one of them, and you'll get home safely on Halloween.
Later, with the Victorian era, a bit of gas lighting in the streets, a bit of scientific education and enlightenment, people pretended that they didn't believe in witches, ghosts and evil spirits anymore, and the custom was donated to children. It became a fun night, and kids were encouraged to dress up, go round to their neighbours houses, and do "a turn" or a party-piece to amuse the adults. This was called "guising" from the word disguise. In return, the kids were given a treat or some money. Party games such as ducking for apples were laid on as well. There was never any "tricking". You only got a treat if you did your turn first, by singing a song, playing a tune on a mouthorgan or recited a poem.
.............
HELIUM
Ok it was invented by god but discovered by a Scotsman
------------
SOCIOLOGY
you may very well cite Emile Durkheim as the founder of sociology but your wrong.
Adam Ferguson (1723 - 1816) Born in Logierait, Perthshire, became Professor of Moral Philosophy at Edinburgh. He introduced the method of studying humankind in groups and is father of the subject now called "Sociology".
Please continue...........
Honnęte Homme.
Yes, please...
Divus
arthur in legend...
well, if you want to waste your time studying the legends instead of what little history remains
1/ its a legend i.e fiction.
2/ this legend is based on the works of Geoffrey of Monmouth, who supposedly used the Saxon Chronicle as one of his key sources of information on arthur.
3/ the french nobility then took this and ran with it
4/ Merlin is a title, not a name. its a title given to the most senior Druid in the british isles. the use of merlin in the arthurian legends, and merlin as a wizard, merely links in with merlin being a powerful druid. bear in mind arthur lived, if he did indeed live, in a time when druidism as the native british religion was equally as popular as the rising christinaity. (the current Merlin, as appointed by the Council of British Druid Orders is Rollo Maughfling, the Archdruid of Glastonbury)
5/ that winchester also lays claim to Camelot, that Avalon is believed to lie in Wales, that Camlan fields lie around somerset etc etc
6/ that with few exceptions, notably Arthur itself, non of the names in the legends have any etymology with naming patterns in the various celtic tongues spoken at the time. Arthur being linked to Urthur, a known Dumnonii king. on the other hand, Lancelot, Guinevere, Gawain and Mordred all have linguistic ties to the medieval romance arthur written in french/latin in the 1100s+
nobody claims arthur was english
why? england didn't exist then. historically england came into being about 500years after arthurs death.
arthur was british. probably not a king, but a british war lord (hence his later title Dux Bellerum), who led the combined british armies at the battle of badon hill. we don't have an exact date, but we estimate between 480 and 510AD. this battle halted the saxon advance by between 20 an 70 years (again estimates vary) and is the probably cause of death of Aelle. it was Aelles sucessor, Cerdic who completed the saxon push, driving the Britons into Cornwall and Wales. he became the first bretwalda. the battle of badon hill is synonomous with the later legends of Camlan. its location is also unknown, but the strongest evidence, based on name changes, puts it north east of modern day Bath.
bath to the romans, was Aqua Sulis, but to the Britons, was Caer Baddon
the britons i talk about consistently here are the modern day welsh and cornish peoples and to some extend the surbving original celtic inhabitants, with a good mix of roman blood thrown in too.
given that arthur fought the saxons, that the saxons invaded Llogyrs (spelling varies, the Lost Lands) which are in the south east of england, there is no historical fact to link the basis of arthurian legend anywhere near scotland. what circumstantial evidence there is sttes that arthur was a briton, of either Gwent, Powys or Dumnonia, the 3 most powerful british kingdoms at that time.
i say again, US Navy founded by the Continental Congress on October 13th 1775. i imagine most people would agree the Continental Congress was American, not Scottish.
halloween? only hundreds of years ago... no no, it goes back WAY further than that. Halloween, the name, is a bastardisation of All Hallows Eve. a night the catholic church used to drive away evil spirits that might taint All Hallows Day (also All Saints Day) on November 1st. (this originated with the vatican in fact, not the north of england...) the origins of this are in fact druidic pagan. the celtic festival of the dead, Samhain, began at midnight on 31st october, lasting through 1st november.
since this festival is easily pre-roman, thousands of years is a better description than hundreds. i'm afraid i can't give you an exact date of when Samhain was first celebrated, but it was probably either in Celtic France or Spain, on a BC date.
Auguste Comte was the first person to coin the phrase "Sociology" he is considered the Grandfather of the field, with other key figures being Durkheim Small and Weber.
pre-sociologists who worked on social theory were Marx, Durkheim, Toennies, Pareto, and of course, Weber. they didn't consider themselves sociologists, but dabbled in many related theories.
Ferguson on the other hand was a philosopher, and could perhaps be considered a political theorist, and also a historian. he written about the history of civil society (1767) and the principles of political science (1792), but never about sociology, and he's not considered a sociologist.
while i'm not one either, i AM a criminologist, and since that didn't exist before the 1920s, we also study the Sociology of Crime and Deviance, and Ferguson is not someone thats ever been referenced in my textbooks on sociology, whilst all the others mentioned are.
i'm guessing with the Chilean navy you refer to Thomas Cochrane, who took command of chilean forces against the spanish. i might point out Chile had a navy prior to his arrival, all 7 ships of it....
these are just the ones i know are wrong off the top of my head
nobody doubts the contributions of other British scientists/inventors, i note a number of inventions from James Watt on the list, who was of course born in scotland (though the Steam Engine is often contested as belonging to a writer in Alexandria known as Hero)
still, despite the list of errors, i'm wondering what the point is..? There has never been an English Empire... though the Angevin Empire was extensive, it belonged to the Kingdom (and Crown) of England, not an English Empire, and the British Empire was controled by the Union of England and Scotland - a union forged by a scotish king, and completed by a scotish queen i might add (King James VI and Queen Anne respectively)
Behold your King
There was indeed an English colonial empire. It encompased the Thirteen Colonies of America, Newfoundland, Jamaica, Barbados and the Caribbean (I do not mean that England owned all of the Carribean), Surat, Bombay, Madras, Calcutta, Tangiers and St Helena.
I don't know why you say that Arthur was Scottish when the Saxons never reached Scotland...
Vassal of the most puissant Sheriff, imb39
Suzerain of the valorous Castellan, scottishranger and of the preux Knight and Master Crafstman Atterdag
Former Editor of the Helios, Councillor of the Concilium de Civitate and Councillor of Peace.
"Quatscht Studium, Verbindung ist die Hauptsache!" Heinrich Mann, Der Untertan
"Man, being reasonable, must get drunk; the best of life is but intoxication" Lord Byron
New and Improved!
agaon, that was Britian, many of the Colonist were Scots. And who ever said Arthur had to fight saxons
tBP,, doesnt mean 100 years ago...back hundreds of years ago
Patron of Basileous Leandros I/Grimsta/rez/ Aemilianus/Publius/ Vizigothe/Ahiga /Zhuge_Liang Under Patronage of Lord Rahl
MY TWC HISTORY
Neptune eats planets
Golf was Roman, apparently Trajan was quite a good golfer.
Heir of Kscott
Proud Patron of the lost Fable and Proud Patron of God
Spurs Fan?
Member of the SG Fan Club
Finland had unusually little to do with the whole New World gig. - Watchman
Helios News Monkey
Knight of the Lulz
New and Improved!
no, they had paganica, that doesnt mean Golf.
tBP, what if Arthur simply fought other Britons?
Well true, but wasnt Bombay aquired after the 7 years war? If so, he wasnt talking about the pre-1707 "empire".depends on the colonies. Britain wasn't created until 1707. any colony before then answered to the Crown of England, whilst many colonists were scottish, it was the English who supported the colonies...
Patron of Basileous Leandros I/Grimsta/rez/ Aemilianus/Publius/ Vizigothe/Ahiga /Zhuge_Liang Under Patronage of Lord Rahl
MY TWC HISTORY
Behold your King
Bombay was part of the dowry of Catherine of Braganza, wife of Charles II, along with Tangers. I specifically included only territories that belonged to England before 1707.
Vassal of the most puissant Sheriff, imb39
Suzerain of the valorous Castellan, scottishranger and of the preux Knight and Master Crafstman Atterdag
Former Editor of the Helios, Councillor of the Concilium de Civitate and Councillor of Peace.
"Quatscht Studium, Verbindung ist die Hauptsache!" Heinrich Mann, Der Untertan
"Man, being reasonable, must get drunk; the best of life is but intoxication" Lord Byron
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