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Thread: Who's still playing?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    No amount of modding can fix RTW, mods like EB and RTR are for history buffs, not old school TW players that started playing back in the days of Shogun. EB or RTR may be an "historical experience", but they're not an experience in tactical war-gaming.

    The RTW (and onwards) campaign map is just an exercise in micro and resource management - I don't particularly enjoy that aspect of the game (or I would have bought a Civ game) and found the new map to be total ing disaster for the series as a whole. But that wouldn't have been so bad if it had actually worked. I gave up after the first campaign of painstakingly walking the animated giants around the "disneyland" style map - M2TW's map was even more disneyland (It might as well have been called "Shrek: Total War"). The sheer idiocy of the campaign game in terms of the piecemeal armies that head for the nearest settlement (without their general) to lay siege while their emissary is also on his way to sue for peace... (rinse and repeat - that's the game) In two words: utter crap. I revisited it some years later in the hope that, as people were advising, patch 1.5 and some mods would make a difference - I also went out and bought M2TW... guess what...? The end result was ebay. Good riddance.

    The best part is that after RTW they spun M2TW as something totally different, reworked and fixed. Good lord it was even worse... and I had doubted that was even possible. I gave up after that and from what I've heard from trusted sources about the newer games (also spun and hyped as totally different, reworked and fixed) it hasn't gotten any better.
    Last edited by caravel; February 17, 2011 at 02:58 AM.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    You can fix the playbalance in RTW by simple (or more complex) modding to a relatively decent degree for tactical battles - except the ranged missile units (archers). They are very hard to balance in the RTW/M2 engine. Horse Archers in particular that fire continuously over an impossible practically to catch platform. Either they will be too powerful or too weak, and most major mods go for the second option.
    It also does not help at all that the AI is poor at protecting his missiles and moving them aronud too much and with cavalry being as strong as it is in vanilla RTW, and unit speeds being as fast as they are in the vanilla game, gameplay can quickly degenerate into a bum rush. The units need slowing down, and cavalry and teh cavalry charge nerfing, and most major mods do that, but it can also be done by home modding.

    In M2 the foot missiles were nerfed somewhat but the mounted missiles could not be and they are king in that game. The Turks of teh Byz in the Crusades campaign are a piece of cake due to the mounted missiles. Much of the problem was that, as Asai Nagamasa said, teh RTW/M2TW engine did not calculate missile trajectories anymore. It just gave casualties (that depended statistically to the missile attack rating of the unit) for any unit being in the "area" the missiles fell irrspective if that unit as moving and hence hit at all by the missiles fired.

    In M2, it was the lack of date and thus historical context that made the game very Disneyland like. Also the insistance of the designers that everything interacted with the player, all the characters talked, the trees moved to te breeze etc it made it very childlike.

    In RTW the camp game doesn't have all that much more management than MTW in terms of tech tree - the tech tree wasn't all that much bigger than that of MTW and in fact it maybe that the MTW tech tree was slightly larger.
    The part that certainly needed more management and made little for it in terms of gameplay were the additional options in moving stacks/characters around, although these have more or less predestined paths since taking a province means taking a city. To set up an army to a choke point say in RTW you need considerably more time in clicks than in MTW/STW, and teh same is for negotiating with diplomats and working with spies and assassins.

    The part of RTW camp game that was certainly far more enlarged was the characters/roleplaying system, with traits and ancillaries. This helped roleplaying without adding management chore only if you decided not to bother too much about your characters traits and work with them rather than trying to engineer them all the time, and also if you decided not to interchange ancillaries of your characters, that part also became smaller in terms of management. If you dsice to bother too much with it, the game can quickly become a verytable and addictive chore - really poor gameplay.

    M2TW had far more tech tree options than RTW with the guilds and teh city/castle dichotomy of settlement progression, but i'm not sure these contributed more to management chore. They added some strategic depth and replayability to the game, ie two types of settlement one for war, one for economic development and try to balance that out and trying to explore all the guilds all the city/castle options etc for new fans especially, but MTW worked on the same principle as it had an enormous tech tree that isn't really used for the most part and that hurts the AI because he can't properly navigate it. The same applies to teh M2 Ai that often is unaware on the strategic level of the consequences of his choices and just "does" things to get the game rolling.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Forgot to mention the population layer in the city management part of the game. For the player, this is a major consideration ie balancing between pop. increase that will increase income by having more taxable people and also unloick the higher levels city that give the better units and between making armies to fight and conquer.

    That is another game within the game that the AI is terribly inept at managing.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    You can fix the playbalance in RTW by simple (or more complex) modding to a relatively decent degree for tactical battles - except the ranged missile units (archers). They are very hard to balance in the RTW/M2 engine. Horse Archers in particular that fire continuously over an impossible practically to catch platform. Either they will be too powerful or too weak, and most major mods go for the second option.
    It also does not help at all that the AI is poor at protecting his missiles and moving them aronud too much and with cavalry being as strong as it is in vanilla RTW, and unit speeds being as fast as they are in the vanilla game, gameplay can quickly degenerate into a bum rush. The units need slowing down, and cavalry and teh cavalry charge nerfing, and most major mods do that, but it can also be done by home modding.
    Well put. Vanilla and single mod RTW lost its charm for me pretty quickly.

    The criticism of the tactical power of horse archers is not quite fair, as they--and their heavier cataphract archer cousins--were the superweapons of the time. Horse archers were impossible to catch; and could only really be countered by massed archers and/or horsearchers. The Mongol's E.European campaign of 1280; the Mughal's conquest of N.India starting with Panipat, 1526; the Roman rout at Carrhae..all are testament to the power of the horseacher.

    My modded experience with RTW was eventually somewhat satisfactory: RTW + RTR + MetroNaval + Darthmod ai + HomeModding: (providing more balanced combined arms starting TOE and range of combined arms barracks--so ai constructs better armies, and Darth's ai makes somewhat better use of them). But considerable tweaking was indeed required. AI ok at siege defense; but still weak at siege assaults: M2TW is actually better at siege assaults.

    Agree that vanilla M2TW overall was a huge letdown. Have tried several mods: Deus Lo Vult, Stainless Steel, Pro Deo et Rege. PDER, despite its weak production values, was the best of these in terms of tactical and strategic challenge, including an AOR system.

    I've preordered Shogun2. Hope it's not just eye candy. Am perhaps naively trusting the Devs will recapture STW's tactical and strategic brilliance; but with updated graphics and controls *crosses fingers*
    .................

    Tried the MTW 2.01 hotfix. No dice. Still CTD's on startup. Am now really rueing choosing that nvidia card last fall
    Last edited by Hieronymos; February 17, 2011 at 04:09 PM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    The criticism of HAs is based on gameplay criteria, not historical ones. I am not interested to play a game that is impeccably historically plausible but has bad gameplay. I am interested to play a game that is historically plausible and also has good gameplay. Having a unit with no counter on the field doesn't make up for good gameplay no matter how historical it is or people say it is.

    HAs for me play better in MTW/STW than the later games, and the major reasons for that are how the engine treats/calculates missiles; and that HAs fire while moving. Of course, from a historical perspective you want to include this feature, but it wasn't balanced very well for gameplay in RTW/M2TW. The player can mass HAs in those games and obliterate stack upon stack of AI armies with very few casualties. You can do it once but after that its not exactly my idea of fun. The Aion the other hand can never have the same advantage because it never uses HAs en masse.

    I don't think that M2TW was all that worse from RTW. It was just more of the same and, in that theme, it had many improvements/additions over Rome.

    As for S2TW don't worry; it can't be worse than Empire.
    Last edited by tashtego; February 17, 2011 at 09:55 PM.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashtego View Post
    You can fix the playbalance in RTW by simple (or more complex) modding to a relatively decent degree for tactical battles - except the ranged missile units (archers).
    Have you fixed morale and fatigue? And I don't mean fudging it by turning fatigue off... the RTW/M2TW engine is inherently b0rked and there is not a lot any amount of modding can do. Even if you could fix the battles, that still leaves the shittastic AI both in battles and on the campaign map. In three words: It's a joke.

    @Hieronymos: Search the .org and .com for info about nvidia card issues. It's well documented by now that some cards are "incompatible" with Shogun and Medieval.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Unfortunately my game still doesnt work even with the new laptop now. Damn it!
    http://e-sim.org/lan.126366/

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  8. #28
    Mr. Bundy's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    I've blown some dust from mine MTW, but I relived the old days

  9. #29

    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Have you fixed morale and fatigue?
    The engine is fundamentally the same in terms of morale penalties/bonuses - the morale system is as it was in the previous games - outnumbering penalties apply just the same and you can have solid melee lines meeting up and fighting long and hard even in vanilla with few minor modifications - again if you confine long range missile units to few factions (Skythia, Armenia, Parthia, pontus, Egypt usually ie the easterners and the steppes).

    fatigue is harder to fix because you cannot designate unit speeds individually as in MTW - they are fixed as are their relatioships between the various unit classes (infantry to cavalry to missiles, or heavy horse to light horse etc). However you can balance the terrain modifiers with the average armour on the campaign to give fatigue as a gameplay component like in MTW/STW without making it excessive that hurts the AI (as, forgot to mention, he also does not understand at all fatigue : )

    Even if you could fix the battles, that still leaves the shittastic AI both in battles and on the campaign map.
    If you fiddle with the battle AI formations (the Darth Mod also has), you can make the AI use 2 line and 3 line formations more often that saves them from the catastrophic failures they suffer since they use the single line formation most often that provides no mutual cover in terms of numbers to advanced units.

    Assuming you make missiles and mounted missiles less frequent and/or better for gameplay (especially for the player) and you can do that in a variety of ways (have them mercs only, reduce their ranged attack and ammo while make them slightly more robust statistically to help teh AI factions that use them in the autocalc), battles can be satisfactorily tactical against the AI, especially at higher unit sizes.

    You can give to phalanxes different AI unit designation so they can fight as heavy infantry that they really are instead of just running after fast cavs here and there.

    You can also fix sieges by stopping towers to fire at all - you can set an impossible angle for the ballistas of the wall towers and the siege towers that are killers for the AI as he walks his troops all around the city walls in attack without disabling teh towers they pass by that means mass slaughter of large armies needlessly, and also you take away from yourself the ability to slaughter the wall heavy infantry of the AI with the ballistas of the siege towers, as teh AI does not know that this is possible.

    I have also attempted to "fix" the BI campaign, and, i must say despite the fact that its full of missiles and missile cavs that you can't do away with as they are imperative in that era, it wasn't all too bad in the end - i fought certain battles that were nearly just as good as MTW battles almost (almost : )

    The campaign AI is something you can do very little for with simple home modding for a gazillion of things. He does not understand the city population feature, he cannot change religion (that hurts him badly as he cannopt coordinat the temple bonuses meaningfully and also in BI he cannot convert his population - something that hurst him really bad; presumably this last bit could be fixed with a script file though), he seldom uses his generals fruitfully in battle, he leaves his settlements unprotected, he does not often use his troops en-masse in large stacks on the camp map and a few others that i no doubt forgot.
    The only solution from a vanilla game pespective is to play on hard/hard (if you want some semblance of diplomacy) or very hard/very hard (if you don't give a damn about any semblance of diplomacy), and count on the difficulty bonuses to make up for it. They - for the most part - do, especially if you go very hard/veyr hard all the way. In that case you can also ignore the diplomats completely and use the diplomacy chats for laughs and tea/coffe breaks : )

    In three words: It's a joke.
    No doubt, it can be made slightly less funny though : )

    in ay case: i certainly agree with you : ) MTW and STW are (very?) difficult to match in terms of engine and playbalance, at least by CA of nowdays, although i am hopeful for S2TW and not in a make belive manner. But we'll see.
    Last edited by tashtego; February 18, 2011 at 02:26 PM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    If you fiddle with the battle AI formations (the Darth Mod also has), you can make the AI use 2 line and 3 line formations more often that saves them from the catastrophic failures they suffer since they use the single line formation most often that provides no mutual cover in terms of numbers to advanced units.
    True--except for the phalanx units in RTW/RTR. For sword units and short_pike works great; sort of like a version of the Roman maniple system..er, rather triples acies (sp?). Darth never bothered to write a phalanx-specific version that had pike units form a continuous, unbroken line with thick masses of sword and cavalry on the flanks. Which is sort of what the battle ai of STW does! It can be quite difficult to flank large enemy armies in STW once they deploy into battle formation..Also has to do with some of the smallish sized battle maps.

    When the ai in either STW or MTW send archer units forward from the main battle line to engage--and hopefully draw out the player from a strong defensive position--they are never far from the main line of battle, making it virtually impossible to snap them up with a cavalry pincer...a tactic that is mind-numbingly easy vs. the M2TW ai.

    Well it's back to STW for me. Think I'll try my hand at Mori, 1580.
    Last edited by Hieronymos; February 18, 2011 at 06:21 PM.

  11. #31
    Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    I love this game but never played on vista so wondering can I play on vista without any problems?

  12. #32

    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Depends on how good your graphics card is. For some strange reason the better you graphics card is, the more chance you have of getting CTDs. I can play on my windows 7, but I've got a pretty poor graphics card.
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  13. #33
    Basileos Leandros I's Avatar Writing is an art
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    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pronoia Allagion View Post
    I love this game but never played on vista so wondering can I play on vista without any problems?
    I have Vista 64-bit, works very well. Compatibility mode for Windows XP and 1152x864 max resolution.

    Mods to try out - XL Mod 3.0, BKB Super Mod, MTW Redux, MedMod.

    My favourite is XL.
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  14. #34
    Shot's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Me lol .

    -Believe in yourself-

  15. #35
    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Installed Shogun Total War the other day.

    Been having a really fun campaign. Started as the Green Clan (Shimazu?) and secured the two islands in South Japan, quickly smashing the Imagawa who only managed to inflict one defeat on me. I then turned my attention to the Mori (Red Clan), where I broke my alliance with them and allied with their enemies the Takeda. During this time, I heard reports of clans in Northern Japan falling to the Hojo who were on the war path, and that this clan had adopted the disgusting foreign ways of Christianity.

    With my Takeda allies I smashed the Mori across several seasons of campaigning. They were soon defeated, and I killed Lord Mori in a final stand, wiping his clan out.

    With Mori out of the way, the Takeda were the only faction standing in the way of domination of Southern Japan. They were down to just three provinces, all surrounded by my newly conquered Mori provinces (Which ironically they helped me take). In one fell swoop, I wiped out the Takeda, and like Lord Mori, Lord Takeda made an honourable final stand where he died in the field.

    With Southern Japan conquered, my spies in the North were reporting the whole of Northern Japan, and most of the centre, had fallen to the Hojo Clan. The Emperor declared his support for the Hojo. The stage was set for a North-South Civil War, with the added factor of religion coming into play

    I pushed into the final few rebel provinces in Central Japan, and lined my battle hardened forces up for the offensive against the Hojo. One of my by now very skilled Ninja's killed Lord Mojo, leaving his only son and heir in charge of the Clan. This sparked a wave of rebellions across Central Japan in Hojo territory, in particular the Ikko Warrior Monks rose up in anger at the Hojo's embrace of Christianity

    I took advantage of this instability and threw my armies into the attack. One of my heirs led a large army to conquer the province East of Kyoto, one of my heirs led an Army to the West and my Daimyo took the biggest army into the province surrounding Kyoto itself with the aim of winning over the Emperor. The Hojo Army near Kyoto fled, leaving the ultimate prize- the Emperors Palace, to me where he declared his support for the Shimazu. The Hojo Army to the West fought and was destroyed, and the Hojo Army to the East fled to their castle.

    The Hojo then mustered a huge army and attacked my forces near Kyoto. The stage was set for an epic clash that would ultimately decide the fate of Japan. My forces were led by my Daimyo, their forces led by their heirless Daimyo. My outnumbered forces set up a defensive position on some high ground, with some warrior monks in hiding.

    I waited in my defensive position overlooking the plain anxiously. The soft rain pattered off my men's armour and before long we could hear the thunderous footsteps of the approaching army before we could even see them. Slowly I could see their banners rising over the ridge line, the silouettes of a few men soon turned into the silhouettes of thousands.

    The first clash of the battle came when his horse archers were sent ahead to scout out and harass my forces- my Yari cavalry dealt with them swiftly and decisively.

    Then came his main battle line. They took heavy casualties from my archers while marching in a solid line towards my forces. My Warrior Monks sprang their trap, taking on their Ashigaru Spearmen on their flank and quickly causing a rout. My cavalry men flanked their forces to target their archers, while the bulk of my forces waited until the enemy line was close enough before launching an epic charge to meet the bulk of the Hojo army approaching up the steep hill.

    They were soon routed and hunted down like dogs. Their Daimyo made a dishonourable retreat and was soon hunted down like a pig by my cavalrymen and slain while attempting to flee the field. A pathetic death for the leader of Japans biggest clan. A long line of dead lay across the battleground away from where the main clash took place. The remainder of my force marched slowly and deliberately across the battlefield, systematically hunting down and destroying the handful of remaining units brave enough to remain standing.

    With their Daimyo dead, the Hojo territories covering the whole of Northern Japan soon dissolved into Petty Kingdoms and Rebel provinces. My spies report that the Usegi Clan has made a reemergence to the North led by a young and inexperienced Daimyo, but they are weak. With my last major obstacle out of the way my forces now prepare to steamroll their way Northwards with the Emperor's support, crushing anyone standing in their way.






    Sorry, I got a little bit carried away
    Last edited by Azog 150; March 10, 2011 at 05:25 PM.
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  16. #36
    God's Avatar Shnitzled In The Negev
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    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azog 150 View Post
    Installed Shogun Total War the other day.

    Been having a really fun campaign. Started as the Green Clan (Shenazu?) and secured the two islands in South Japan, quickly smashing the Imagawa who only managed to inflict one defeat on me. I then turned my attention to the Mori (Red Clan), where I broke my alliance with them and allied with their enemies the Takeda. During this time, I heard reports of clans in Northern Japan falling to the Hojo who were on the war path, and that this clan had adopted the disgusting foreign ways of Christianity.

    With my Takeda armies I smashed the Mori across several seasons of campaigning. They were soon defeated, and I killed Lord Mori in a final stand, wiping his clan out.

    With Mori out of the way, the Takeda were the only faction standing in the way of domination of Southern Japan. They were down to just three provinces, all surrounded by my newly conquered Mori provinces (Which ironically they helped me take). In one fell swoop, I wiped out the Takeda, and like Lord Mori, Lord Takeda made an honourable final stand where he died in the field.

    With Southern Japan conquered, my spies in the North were reporting the whole of Northern Japan, and most of the centre, had fallen to the Hojo Clan. The Emperor declared his support for the Hojo. The stage was set for a North-South Civil War, with the added factor of religion coming into play

    I pushed into the final few rebel provinces in Central Japan, and lined my battle hardened forces up for the offensive against the Hojo. One of my by now very skilled Ninja's killed Lord Mojo, leaving his only son and heir in charge of the Clan. This sparked a wave of rebellions across Central Japan in Hojo territory, in particular the Ikko Warrior Monks rose up in anger at the Hojo's embrace of Christianity

    I took advantage of this instability and threw my armies into the attack. One of my heirs led a large army to conquer the province East of Kyoto, one of my heirs led an Army to the West and my Daimyo took the biggest army into the province surrounding Kyoto itself with the aim of winning over the Emperor. The Hojo Army near Kyoto fled, leaving the ultimate prize- the Emperors Palace, to me where he declared his support for the Shimazu. The Hojo Army to the West fought and was destroyed, and the Hojo Army to the East fled to their castle.

    The Hojo then mustered a huge army and attacked my forces near Kyoto. The stage was set for an epic clash that would ultimately decide the fate of Japan. My forces were led by my Daimyo, their forces led by their heirless Daimyo. My outnumbered forces set up a defensive position on some high ground, with some warrior monks in hiding.

    I waited in my defensive position overlooking the plain anxiously. The soft rain pattered off my men's armour and before long we could hear the thunderous footsteps on the approaching army before we could even see them. Slowly I could see their banners rising over the ridge line, the silouettes of a few men soon turned into the silhouettes of thousands.

    The first clash of the battle came when his horse archers were sent ahead to scout out and harass my forces- my Yari cavalry dealt with them swiftly and decisively.

    Then came his main battle line. They took heavy casualties from my archers while marching in a solid line towards my forces. My Warrior Monks sprang their trap, taking on their Ashigaru Spearmen on their flank and quickly causing a rout. My cavalry men flanked their forces to target their archers, while the bulk of my forces waited until the enemy line was close enough before launching an epic charge to meet the bulk of the Hojo army approaching up the steep hill.

    They were soon routed and hunted down like dogs. Their Daimyo made a dishonourable retreat and was soon hunted down like a pig by my cavalrymen and slain while attempting to flee the field. A pathetic death for the leader of Japans biggest clan. A long line of dead lay across the battleground away from where the main clash took place. The remainder of my force marched slowly and deliberately across the battlefield, systematically hunting down and destroying the handful of remaining units brave enough to remain standing.

    With their Daimyo dead, the Hojo territories covering the whole of Northern Japn soon dissolved into Petty Kingdoms and Rebel provinces. My spies report that the Usegi Clan has made a emergence to the North led by a young and inexperienced Daimyo, but they are weak. With my last major obstacle out of the way my forces now prepare to steamroll their way Northwards with the Emperor's support, crushing anyone standing in their way.






    Sorry, I got a little bit carried away
    This post made me want to reinstall Shogun

    In fact, I think I will tomorrow.

    Medieval I doesn't work on my computer that well, crashes after a certain point or as a crusade is launched

  17. #37
    bleach's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Of course I still play MTW, it's the only game that lets me keep the dynastic bloodline pure.

  18. #38
    Basileos Leandros I's Avatar Writing is an art
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    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by bleach View Post
    Of course I still play MTW, it's the only game that lets me keep the dynastic bloodline pure.
    After the first King/Emperor/Sultan, I can't keep my bloodline pure. Every time it has to be some daughter of a nobleman rather than a princess from outside.

    Or perhaps you were talking about incest...?
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  19. #39
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Who's still playing?
    Well if MTW1-modding counts, then I suppose you could sign me up here as well. However, I must admit that I find raw-MTW too easy, predictable and standardized for my tastes (while STW still rocks). I play and work with MTW-Redux as it is essentially the only version/alternative (so far) that I find appealing and tough enough to keep me interested. For those who have not tried it, I suggest that you should, as it offers a fresh, much harder and tougher experience then plain ‘ol MTW – just in case you might want to take a walk on the wild side and play a game that can actually bite back at you. …Just a “tad” more adventurous and dangerous then safe ‘ol MTW, so to speak.

    BTW, there is a fairly new Redux Beta out for V1.1 and I’ll release a VI-version as well soon. For details and stuff check Redux-sticky-thread above.

    - Cheers
    Last edited by Axalon; April 08, 2011 at 03:36 PM. Reason: She-Hulk...

  20. #40

    Default Re: Who's still playing?

    Quote Originally Posted by God View Post
    This post made me want to reinstall Shogun

    In fact, I think I will tomorrow.

    Medieval I doesn't work on my computer that well, crashes after a certain point or as a crusade is launched
    try the fix in post 169
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...post2053276169
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