byzantine army composition

[RedGuard]

im playing the byzantines around 1203 ad and at war with venice already in the main campaign. this is my first time as the Byzies and i don't really know thier army to well.so far all i really have acess to and have been using are scoutari and the sword infantry and the early scholari (Scoutatoui i think is what thier called) basically my question is this what should i use against western knights in terms of infantry and calvary? and also what should i use to counter the fast moving horse archers of the east?

[AnthoniusII]

Use city walls and castle ones...levy javelinmen are usufull up there.
In open field let the enemy come to you.
Use your spearmen shieldwall (if any),place archers behind them and attack knights with cavalry from the rear after they (the knights) are engaged with the spearmen.

[RedGuard]

that's the thing though my early units are crap compared to most other factions, scoutaoui sword and spear run when fighting knights and i can't afford to have venice creating the latin empire in 1210

[palatinae]

use a lot of archers...u should be a mix between the eastern and western style...u cant be up to a lot of Armour and u cant be so much arrows...also use missile cavalry....also flanking

[Hidden Sage]

In my experience with the Byzantines, Your infantry are really only on the field to keep his units standing still, making it easier to hit them with arrows. Pikemen help, but you'd have to come by mercs for most of the game there. Usually, your best approach is either your own heavy cavalry (stratatoi are AMAZING once you have a fortress to acquire them by) and some missile cavalry (cavalarii).


To give an example, my standard army comp is:

4 archers (mourtatoi if I can get them, a mix of toxotae and mercs if not).
4 heavy infantry (scoutatoi swords are readily available, but most mercs are better)
4 spears (scoutatoi unless you can find some really good mercs-- or pikemen).
4 missile cavalry (whatever you can get here, as there are no bad missile cav)
4 heavy cavalry (this section includes your generals, as bodyguards ARE incredible units).

Set all the infantry in a 4x3 block, with archers in the back and spears in front. Split the missile and heavy cavalry into groups of 2, so that you have 2 missile and 2 heavy cavalry on each flank. Advance the missiles first-- they'll draw the attention of his cavalry, and pepper some fire in to break up a charge. Keep your heavy cavalry just behind, and as soon as he moves to attack your missile cavalry with his own heavy, charge them. This will break up his cavalry early, and leave your missiles free to run behind his lines and slaughter the infantry.

The Byzantines are an odd faction to play, simply because they have that mix of east and west in unit comps. But it opens up some strategies that simply would not work for another faction, and a well-operated Roman army is hard to beat.

[RedGuard]

so basically the byzantines rely on heavy calvary, but compared to knights and the monglolian/ turkish lancers of the east they seem to be no match. played a few battles to get acquainted with them in custom battle mode and it always came down to infnatry vs infantry mostly because my calvary was decimated after a few run ins with heavy cav.

1.what unit should i use to fight dismounted knights?

2.what units should i use to fight mounted knights with as in calvary vs calvary?

i hope im not being to specific

[Hidden Sage]

Well, I rely on Byzantine cavalry a lot-- but only to remove other heavy cavalry from the equation. Because heavy cavalry are the only things that can really ruin your archers and mounted archers, and Byzantine archers are incredible (skythithon and mourtatoi both rock the board). Yeah, the casualty rates suck-- but if you can cut out his cavalry, and use your infantry to keep him standing still to get the archers a shot, it shot be a clear victory every time.

As to dismounted infantry-- I recommend letting the missile cavalry pepper them off from a distance. If not, spearmen do okay just because the reach of spears helps get more of your men engaged, letting you have a numerical edge in # of soldiers attacking.

And if your cavalry are getting torn up that badly, you might just need to practice your charges a bit. Never start them engaging from close quarters-- give them room to build up a run, and they'll melt everything in their path (save spears and pikes-- which still lose if you flank them).

[Deadman1709]

Byzantine is probably my favourite so far, partially because of my admiration for their history; but still. My only complaint is that they don't have good cannons late in game. WTF? Bombards?

Anyway, here's how I use them most of the time: 4 heavy infantry, 4 anti-cavalry (2 pikes + 2 spear) infantry, 4 archers/crossbow/gun (if gun are available, then 2 guns + 2 archers), 4 heavy cavalry, 3 horse archers, 1 general. The assumption is the enemy will march to you, you can hold the ground and archers/crossbows/gunners can use stakes, which is usually true

Draw up the 2 pikes in the middle. Place archers on the left and right of the pikes, use stakes. Draw up the heavy infantry right behind the archer. Cap each end of the line with spears. Put heavy cavalry on the flanks but slightly to the rear. Group all 3 of your horse archers in one group.

When the battle starts, race or horse archers forward to the enemy right flank and start shooting. In case they have heavy cavalry, target these first. To maximise the effectiveness of your horse archers, turn off fire at will, get close to the enemy (still comfortably far, turn on skirmish mode), then have them all fire at a single target at the same time. Do it right and after 2 volleys you may kill of 50% of every cavalry unit.
Repeat, move from right flank, rear then turn to the left. shoot down enemy cavalry as you go.

The number of horse archers may vary. I found 3 usually enough when the enemy have less than 3 cavalry. If they have 4 or more, you may want to reduce the number of archers and add horse archer. Then you can have 2 groups of 2 horse archers each to attack enemy cavalry on both flanks.

Usually when they are close enough, the heavy cavalry may break off and start charging your horse archers. Run towards your line of infantry (turning of skirmish mode may allow you to make sharper turns). Try to get your own archers to shoot the approaching cavalry. After one volley or so, shift fire and charge, remember: Charge the heavy cavalry with your own. They are probably weaken by now so you may be able to overwhelm them with numbers. Just remember to get your horse archer fire at will off and not shoot at the enemy cavalry when you are in melee. Have the horse archers join in the fight if possible. Don't get all the cavalry engaged in one charge; keep some in reserve should additional enemy charge your already engaged cavalry; that'll be ugly.

Once all the heavy cavalry is out of the way, then it's pretty easy job. The enemy may devote some infantry to chase your horse archers, turn on skirmish mode, let the horse run free (but keep an eye on ammo, once they're out, they'll stop running). You want to distract as many enemy infantry as possible. Use your archers to cut enemy down. If they get close, race the heavy infantry behind the archer to stand IN FRONT of the stakes. I can't stress this enough. You may need some practice to get the timing right. Then it's classic hammer and anvil. get the archers to a few position and keep shooting. Just remember a few things

1) If your heavy infantry engage behind the stakes or standing on the stakes, do not charge the enemy with cavalry. Losing all your cavalry to your stakes is just not cool.

2) Do not charge you cavalry into enemy engaging your pikes from the back. My pikes "kill" my own cavalry when I do this. You can use heavy infantry charge, archer fire arrows (shooting at their back) or horse archers arrows (same) but for sake not your cavalry charge. DLV pikes are actually pretty sturdy; they can hold themselves for a while (They have the second lowest casualties rate in my army, lowest are horse archers. Highest are spears).

The capping spears on your flanks are usually sucker punch: a lot of enemy infantry are drawn to them. Use these to attract enemy infantry, then hammer and anvil. They also suffer the most casualties so do remember to bring a lot of spear reserves or retrain, thankfully they are cheap.

I originally develop this tactic for Hungary. One exception is I use halberds instead of pikes. Hungary spear need fortress for good spears and the casualties for spear is high so there's a high demand for spears.

Then I adapted it to Spain. For Spain, early games I uses Javelin horse. Works like a charm. 1 volley of 3 Jinites kill about half of any enemy heavy cav. But do have to control the ammo used since javelin run out fast. Later I use mounted crossbows. Sweet. And Spain got kick-ass musketeers and pikes. However, Spain got crappy spears. I used spear militias for the job. They tend to suffer great loss but they're cheap and easy to retrain so I usually bring a bunch of them.

Then I guess tactics will work for any factions with range cavalry. I love these guys. Most economical heavy cavalry killer.

But if you DO encounter horse archers, race your own forward, then draw theirs to your line of infantry. Foot archers usually make short work of horse archers (higher attack, longer range, large number, better armour). Then you can race the horse archers to shoot enemy heavy cav.

Originally I like playing the pure Western style: heavy cav, heavy inf. But lately, I prefer the mixed factions: Turks, Byzantine, Hungary, Spain, etc ... They are usually more flexible.

[TaronQuinn]

Excellent advice, Deadman, really details a lot of the basic maneuvers beginning players need to know.

Personally, I just use whatever troops seem appropriate. In the early game, first 30-35 turns, I'm usually scrambling around capturing rebel towns/forts and just trying to get enough money to recruit ANY troops haha.
After I'm established with good income and developed military recruitment, I like to have a core of Skoutatoi with one or two Swordsmen for support, 2-3 Acontistae or Akritai for javelins (posted just behind the main line to give a charging enemy one last missile strike), several professional archers (Tox or Mourt), and several horse archers, usually Turkoman or Cuman mercs until I can train my own Cavalarii.
I use only 2-3 heavy cav, but prefer the Mounted Akritai; I swing them out behind the enemy after they engage my main line and pepper them with heavy javelins. Almost as effective as a charge, and no risk to my men.
And they can still support a heavy cav charge or run down routers, which is the #2 method for finishing any battle, as it prevents you from having to fight the same men again. (#1 is using horse archers to shoot down routers, as then you don't take them prisoner and no need to ransom them, or kill them and face nasty traits).

TQ

[Deadman1709]

Thanks TQ.

Sure enough in the early game it's mostly scrapping whatever you can get; but for me a battle in open field need some range cavalry. They can do the most damage with the least risk while being very versatile. The only thing that they need to watch out is foot archers. This is a painful lesson I learned when facing the Italians. My solution is only to engage them when they are either: 1) moving or 2) shooting someone else.

In later game, I tend to bring about 4 heavy cavalry. This is because of my experience dealing with enemy heavy cavalry. Since I don't want to lose a lot of cavalry even though the enemy is greatly weakened, I decided to overwhelm them every time with superior number. This usually saves me from having to retrain them too often.

My army work for almost any type of army they face, whether infantry dominant or heavy cavalry dominant. The exact composition changes though. Usually more enemy heavy cav (> 4-5) means more horse archers. More enemy horse archers (> 4) means more foot archers.

[Cultness]

I haven't played the Byzies in a while but here is one of my thoughts. Don't underestimate the Akritai, they may seem a bit weak, but they are still throwing javelins nonetheless. Position them behind your armored knights/spearmen and let the wreak havoc. This works especially well against the lightly armored middle eastern factions.