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  1. #1
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Euthanasia

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4643802.stm


    Quote Originally Posted by bbc.co.uk
    Britons who chose assisted suicide

    Mrs Crew travelled with her husband to Switzerland
    Retired doctor Anne Turner, 66, is the latest in a line of Britons choosing to end their life with the assistance of the Dignitas clinic in Switzerland.
    The controversial charity says it has now helped more than 40 people from the UK to commit suicide.

    The first, in January 2003, was Reg Crew.

    The former docker, who was 74, had suffered from motor neurone disease, a progressively disabling illness that is fatal is every case, for more than four years.

    Although there is a drug that can hold back the progress of the disease, there is no cure.

    The symptoms are gradual paralysis - the patient lose the ability to move, even though his or her mental faculties remain completely intact.

    Eventually, the disease affects the ability to breathe.


    Before drinking water laced with barbiturates, he told a nurse at the Zurich clinic: "I want to die today."

    Earlier, Mr Crew had told BBC News: "I don't want to go on living like this. I have had enough."



    But he no longer had the ability to commit suicide independently.

    Mrs Win Crew, who was with her husband when he died, described her husband's death as "dignified".


    Couple's death

    Three months later, Robert and Jennifer Stokes, from Leighton Buzzard in Bedfordshire, swallowed lethal doses of barbiturates at a Zurich flat run by Dignitas.




    The couple were not thought to be terminally ill
    Mr Stokes, 59, suffered from epilepsy and his 53-year-old wife from diabetes and back problems, but neither was thought to have been terminally ill.

    Mrs Stokes' sister, Dorothy Killackey, told BBC News: "We are very surprised. Everything seems to have been arranged, the funeral and everything.

    "It was obviously very well planned but we had no idea."


    In May 2003, another motor neurone disease sufferer, John Close, 54, died at the Dignitas Clinic, with his family at his bedside.

    The former musician, of Willen, Milton Keynes, pressed the plunger himself to inject the barbiturates that ended his life.


    John Close died with his sister Lesley at his bedside

    His sister Lesley said: "John decided in January that he would like to end his life at some point because he had MND and had an increasing sense of helplessness and dependence on other people to provide for his everyday needs.

    "He talked about committing suicide by his own hand but was afraid of failing and waking up to find he was being stomach-pumped."

    She and his other sister were holding Mr Close's hands as he died.


    Court challenge

    Diane Pretty, who was also in the advanced stages of motor neurone disease, refused an offer to die at the Dignitas Clinic so she could challenge the UK's laws on assisted suicide.

    Dignitas wrote to Ms Pretty, from Luton, Bedfordshire in December 2001 offering her an assisted suicide.


    The mother-of-two had asked the director of public prosecutions to rule out prosecuting her husband if he helped her commit suicide.



    Diane Pretty lost her court battle in 2001

    She had argued the condition had impaired the quality of her life so badly that she wanted to be able to choose when to die.

    But her request was denied, which prompted her to take court action.

    Her argument that she had the human right to choose when to die was rejected at the High Court and by the Law Lords.

    And the European Court of Human Rights rejected her claim that the UK courts had contravened her human rights.

    She started suffering breathing difficulties just days after she lost the case and died of natural causes within two weeks.

    The 43-year-old was paralysed with motor neurone disease when she died.
    What do you think?

    If I ever get a terminal illness just point me in the right direction I'll strap myself in and push the button.

    Peter

  2. #2
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    I never had so much pain that I wanted to be dead so I can't say what I'd do if I had a terminal illness.

    "Eventually, the disease affects the ability to breathe. "
    That's terrible. I wouldn't want to die like that.
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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Had a friend of the family suffer from a wasting disease which stopped her talking or even blinking, she's starting to lose her hearing to. But her mind is totally fine, living hell if you ask me.

    Suicide is supposed to be a sin in christianity, but I think I'd rather be a sinner.

    Peter

  4. #4

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    I think that if someone is having a horrible life due to some disease etc they should be allowed help to kill themselves.

    The title of this topic 'Euthanasia', what does it mean?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordSaradain
    The title of this topic 'Euthanasia', what does it mean?
    Fancy word for suicide.
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  6. #6
    Rhah's Avatar S'eer of Fnords
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    Silly religious reasons aside, I think most people in that sort of situation would want to be able to choose whether they wanted to live or not.
    The problem is when you have someone who is in that sort of state, but cannot chose for themselves, either because they cannot communicate anymore, or are comatose.
    You could argue to let the next of kin decide, but can you always trust the next of kin? (they might just be after the inheritance or something.)

    its a controversial subject, especially for those crazy puritanical yanks ( Terry Schiavo (sp?) being a case in point)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhah
    I think most people in that sort of situation would want to be able to choose whether they wanted to live or not.
    Don't forget that most people in that situation would choose for death because they have been through so much pain which makes their desicion.. well.. one sided. I have told my parents that if I fall in a coma which I am still in after a year they can pull the plugs. I am for some reason terrified of a coma...
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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhah
    especially for those crazy puritanical yanks ( Terry Schiavo (sp?) being a case in point)
    ah yes, all of us Americans are crazy religious zealots, obviously . Everyone I knew supported her husband (who wanted to pull the tube). The whole thing was blown out of proportion by the media, which only made it worse, because then every a-hole with an agenda joined on one side or another.
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    Libertine's Avatar Neptune eats planets
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    ah yes, all of us Americans are crazy religious zealots
    You said it not me. :laughing:

    Joking dude.

    To go back On Topic. I think that it should be ok - I would hate to live like that - in fact I may leave a note to familly members saying if i ever get in that condition then they are to drop me off a bridge, or im to have a very nasty accidentally brutal accident by stabbing a razor blade through my ear when i was being spoon fed
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  10. #10
    Rhah's Avatar S'eer of Fnords
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman
    ah yes, all of us Americans are crazy religious zealots, obviously . Everyone I knew supported her husband (who wanted to pull the tube). The whole thing was blown out of proportion by the media, which only made it worse, because then every a-hole with an agenda joined on one side or another.

    t'was a joke mate, though thinking about it, i probably should have put a smily on there or something.

    Wasnt there a lot of controversy about her husband, some right-wing types trying to make out that he wanted to kill her because he was having an affair or something.
    It was definitly blown out of proportion though.
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  11. #11
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhah
    t'was a joke mate, though thinking about it, i probably should have put a smily on there or something.

    Wasnt there a lot of controversy about her husband, some right-wing types trying to make out that he wanted to kill her because he was having an affair or something.
    It was definitly blown out of proportion though.
    oh, sorry :sweatingb

    yes, you are right about the controversy over her husband, started by those who wished to keep her alive. They tried to portay him as evil because he wanted to pull the tube. As for the whole affair thing, im not really sure about it, so I cant comment.
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  12. #12

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    The title of this topic 'Euthanasia', what does it mean?
    It's a Greek word which means 'good dying'. The interpretation of the 'good' part could be multiple, and I don't know if it is fitting in every case of somebody terminating his life in a painless way.

    Actually I think that pain is not even the issue. What does pain matter if you're gonna die anyway? I believe that we should stick to life as much as we can. I had read somewhere that nobody dies unless he wants to. That could be true in a way, and even a painful life will probably be more exciting than no life at all. But I don't have a strict opinion on euthanasia, even though I tend to think that it shouldn't happen (at least not in the modern meaning of the term).

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenic Hoplite
    It's a Greek word which means 'good dying'. The interpretation of the 'good' part could be multiple, and I don't know if it is fitting in every case of somebody terminating his life in a painless way.

    Actually I think that pain is not even the issue. What does pain matter if you're gonna die anyway? I believe that we should stick to life as much as we can. I had read somewhere that nobody dies unless he wants to. That could be true in a way, and even a painful life will probably be more exciting than no life at all. But I don't have a strict opinion on euthanasia, even though I tend to think that it shouldn't happen (at least not in the modern meaning of the term).
    Pain is the exact issue, pain and quality of life.

    If you think that you have never spoken to someone who is in so much pain they just want an end to it. We aren't talking a cut or something, we are talking your body destroying itself from the inside. Or a disease where you can't even swallow anymore, can't move or speak or see just solitary confinement (which is torture).

    If you had a dog in one of these conditions would you have him put down?

    Strange that in Britain we debate this subject and yet it does already happen in a way. I have witnessed two deaths of people with cancer, each time the time of death was to convenient, just after the family had gathered and a final injection was given and not long after it happened. I firmly believe the doctors have finished both of them with morphine, or at least given them large enough doses that the body is weakened sufficiently to give up.

    Anyone on here with a medical background?

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowen70
    Pain is the exact issue, pain and quality of life.

    If you think that you have never spoken to someone who is in so much pain they just want an end to it. We aren't talking a cut or something, we are talking your body destroying itself from the inside. Or a disease where you can't even swallow anymore, can't move or speak or see just solitary confinement (which is torture).

    If you had a dog in one of these conditions would you have him put down?

    Strange that in Britain we debate this subject and yet it does already happen in a way. I have witnessed two deaths of people with cancer, each time the time of death was to convenient, just after the family had gathered and a final injection was given and not long after it happened. I firmly believe the doctors have finished both of them with morphine, or at least given them large enough doses that the body is weakened sufficiently to give up.

    Anyone on here with a medical background?

    Peter
    Well of course I have talked to somebody dying from inside, my grandfather is very old and his entire system has collapsed, he has more health problems than he once had teeth. He is in great pains for a number of different reasons, cannot breathe anymore without devices, cannot survive without taking a handful of pills every day... So please don't be hostile, we're only discussing here, and you don't know what pain looks like more than me.

    He is an example of a fighter to me. He doesn't give up. And even though his quality of life is horrible because he is being kept in life by all artificial means possible, when we have a talk he still makes jokes, he still has something wise to say or some useful memory to recall... His smile and his hug are worth the sadness that it brings me to see him in pain. If he wants to stick to life, that's perhaps he has seen that pain is only an illusion, and is willing to undertake it for those things that are good in life. After all, if you don't have life, do you have anything at all? Even if your life is painful, isn't it wonderful that you still have a life while countless other souls don't?

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    Bwaho's Avatar Puppeteer
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    In a true free society you should get to make the decision if you want to end your own life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenic Hoplite
    If he wants to stick to life, that's perhaps he has seen that pain is only an illusion, and is willing to undertake it for those things that are good in life. After all, if you don't have life, do you have anything at all? Even if your life is painful, isn't it wonderful that you still have a life while countless other souls don't?
    Nobody's saying he has to die. If you want to live despite the pain, nobody's stopping you. However, those who wish to die because of a wasting, terminal illness should have that choice.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenic Hoplite
    Well of course I have talked to somebody dying from inside, my grandfather is very old and his entire system has collapsed, he has more health problems than he once had teeth. He is in great pains for a number of different reasons, cannot breathe anymore without devices, cannot survive without taking a handful of pills every day... So please don't be hostile, we're only discussing here, and you don't know what pain looks like more than me.

    He is an example of a fighter to me. He doesn't give up. And even though his quality of life is horrible because he is being kept in life by all artificial means possible, when we have a talk he still makes jokes, he still has something wise to say or some useful memory to recall... His smile and his hug are worth the sadness that it brings me to see him in pain. If he wants to stick to life, that's perhaps he has seen that pain is only an illusion, and is willing to undertake it for those things that are good in life. After all, if you don't have life, do you have anything at all? Even if your life is painful, isn't it wonderful that you still have a life while countless other souls don't?
    Hmm the problems of text related dialogue, I was not being hostile. I was implying ignorance to either the realities of life or my arguements, one or the other but it doesn't anger me if you don't agree with me.

    That is a lesser pain than I was talking about, I'm going to avoid using personal examples but I am talking about the kind of pain that is constant that doesn't allow you to talk or have an occasional laugh but means you spend days/weeks/months on a constant supply of morphine and become delirious, you spend the last few days of your life screaming or comatose from morphine. I can't imagine anyone who would not avoid that if they could. Being a "fighter" does not come into it, there isn't any machismo or bravado when you are facing death in incredible pain.

    I ask again do you believe in euthanasia for animals?

    Peter

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    Here's one example of why it sometimes is good to not give up right away.

    Apple CEO Steve Jobs was onced diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, an uncurable cancer that doctors said would end his life in less than 6 months. He underwent some surgery so the doctors could see how badly he was affected - and when they viewed the ancer cells under the microscope, they found out it was actually a strain of extremely rare cancer that was treatable by surgery. If he had given up, where would Apple be today? Of course, he wasn't in pain, but sometimes it might be best to give life a small chance, neh? :original:

    I'm a strong supporter of the choice, though... hell, it's my life, I should be able to decide when and how it ends. I wouldn't want some court or governement who has never met me to decide how my life will end.
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  19. #19

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    If the person is able to make the choice that person should be allowed If he or she wants to die. I would want to die If I know I was going to be in Terrible pain and die of cancer in 18 Months. So to Summarise my View It's your Life and you make the Choice and even if you can't your Family know what's best.
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  20. #20
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    The key word that I have not seen mentioned so far is dignity. We have become so obsessed about saving and extending life we have lost site of the human being concerned. Life has become the be all and end all of existence. We treat animals much more humanely in this regard.

    It does, however, need to be tightly regulated, there are plenty of unscrupulous people who would sell their mother for an inheritance.

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