White House defends spying policy

[bigfootedfred]

White House defends spying policy

The Bush administration has embarked on a concerted public defence of its intelligence-gathering practices.
It is focusing particularly on the electronic surveillance of Americans suspected of links to international terrorism.
On Tuesday Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said eavesdropping on citizens' international calls without court approval was legal and necessary.
President Bush is also expected to address this issue on Wednesday.
The news that US intelligence agencies have been listening to the international communications of Americans without getting the usual permission from the courts to do so is creating some political turbulence for the Bush administration.
Democrats in Congress, and some Republicans, have expressed anger at what they see as an infringement of civil liberties, and Congressional researchers have even debated the programme's legality.

Campaign of persuasion

So this week the administration is going all out to persuade Americans that the surveillance is legal and has been effective in protecting the country from further attacks like those of 11 September 2001.
Alberto Gonzales, who heads the Department of Justice, said in a speech at Washington's Georgetown University that Congress had given the president authority to order the surveillance without going through the courts.
He said that the normal procedures for getting warrants to run surveillance were too slow and cumbersome.
On Monday one of the country's most senior intelligence officers,
General Michael Hayden, made a rare public appearance and a similar argument.

This is a very concerted campaign of persuasion and it suggests that the administration
Is rattled by allegations that it might have broken the law.
A new opinion poll suggests that a distinct majority of Americans, some 58%,
Favour a full investigation into whether or not the surveillance is legal.

source

So where do you stand Americanos.
Do you want a full investigation?

and.

Are some civil liberties expendable, in order to gain what is percived as more security?

[Legio XX Valeria Victrix]

I'm gonna have to go with the big Ben Franklin on this one:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty for a little security will deserve neither, and lose both."

[PTL]

George Bush spys on you because you touch yourself at night.

*End of Debate*



Who doesn't touch themselves at night?. Keep the discussion intelligent please. -LR

[Handsome Huss]

I believe its neccessary for homeland security. If you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to hide. It's not like the government is going to record your conversation on Phone Sex Hotline and put it in a newspaper... They are doing it to protect the country, its neccessary, and the fact that they came out and said that they are doing it should be enough for America. There's no more secrecy behind it, which to me, would be a lot more bothersome. There's no chance of some government corruption behind it or whatever else somebody may be worried about.
My opinion, anyways.

But then again, breaking the law is breaking the law. So I suppose I'd say that the investigation is in order. So, in my opinion, the law should be changed.

[Tiwaz]

I believe its neccessary for homeland security. If you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to hide. It's not like the government is going to record your conversation on Phone Sex Hotline and put it in a newspaper... They are doing it to protect the country, its neccessary, and the fact that they came out and said that they are doing it should be enough for America. There's no more secrecy behind it, which to me, would be a lot more bothersome. There's no chance of some government corruption behind it or whatever else somebody may be worried about.
My opinion, anyways.

But then again, breaking the law is breaking the law. So I suppose I'd say that the investigation is in order. So, in my opinion, the law should be changed.

But are you SURE there is no goverment corruption? My memory brings forth incident where USA was using it's Echelon system to spy on company executives of it's ALLIES and providing this information to US corporations to help them. It was rather large incident less that 10 years from this IIRC. To assume US goverment, or individual people involved in the process, would not use this for corrupt purposes is rather trusting.

[mike^_^]

I believe its neccessary for homeland security. If you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to hide.

that's not the point, you give them an inch and they take a mile. all government is interested in doing is maintaining the control they already have, and devising strategems for expanding that control.

There's no more secrecy behind it, which to me, would be a lot more bothersome. There's no chance of some government corruption behind it or whatever else somebody may be worried about.

in my view, the fact that they are coming out about this now and openly discussing it, is terrifying. what we are seeing is a "coming out" if you will, because they are looking to expand what they are already doing, they just need us to accept it publicly.

also don't let the democrats fool you, they will come out and denounce something publicly, giving us the illusion of debate, and then vote for it

[Hodor]

in my view, the fact that they are coming out about this now and openly discussing it, is terrifying. what we are seeing is a "coming out" if you will, because they are looking to expand what they are already doing, they just need us to accept it publicly.

Yeah, that's what's worrying me too.

You kind of expect various government agencies to secretly spy on people and cross certain legal boundaries. Now that they're being open about spying on people, who knows what they do in secret now?

[Legio XX Valeria Victrix]

I believe its neccessary for homeland security. If you're not doing anything wrong then you have nothing to hide. It's not like the government is going to record your conversation on Phone Sex Hotline and put it in a newspaper... They are doing it to protect the country, its neccessary, and the fact that they came out and said that they are doing it should be enough for America. There's no more secrecy behind it, which to me, would be a lot more bothersome. There's no chance of some government corruption behind it or whatever else somebody may be worried about.
My opinion, anyways.

But then again, breaking the law is breaking the law. So I suppose I'd say that the investigation is in order. So, in my opinion, the law should be changed.

Like Tiwaz said, you're being a little bit naive. Perhaps it's true that the government is doing this for altruistic purposes (debatable). Even so, to assume that everyone in the system, the individuals, are not screwing around with it and spying on people who have nothing to do with international terror is simply naive. If you open the door to this kind of activity for the government and its agencies, eventually someone will misuse it, that's just stark human nature for you.

And think about some of the triggers they are using. Let's say you are in a high school history class, and you want to do a paper on the Crusades. If you check books out of a public library that are about the Muslims of the 11th Century, you have probably activated a government trigger and they will now track your library records, your phone records, computer records and do on. Eventually they'll probably find out that you are not a terrorist, but doesn't that upset you in the slightest? To be treated like a criminal and have your privacy invaded simply because of what you chose to do your paper on?

It's just an example, but you can bet it's already happening in the real world.

[RZZZA]

Yes, I want the responsible parties to come forth and answer for themselves exactly why theyre spying on American citizens. I'm for the idea of government sponsored spying, but only on percieved enemies, not on model U.S. citizens. This entire thing smacks of abuse of power, which btw is not a first with this administration. I want the people responsible to hang from the nearest figurative tree, I want them to lose their jobs, and I want their superiors to lose their jobs.

"On Tuesday Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said eavesdropping on citizens' international calls without court approval was legal and necessary."

Hang.

"President Bush is also expected to address this issue on Wednesday."

Hang.

[Nationalist_Cause]

Like Tiwaz said, you're being a little bit naive. Perhaps it's true that the government is doing this for altruistic purposes (debatable). Even so, to assume that everyone in the system, the individuals, are not screwing around with it and spying on people who have nothing to do with international terror is simply naive. If you open the door to this kind of activity for the government and its agencies, eventually someone will misuse it, that's just stark human nature for you.

And think about some of the triggers they are using. Let's say you are in a high school history class, and you want to do a paper on the Crusades. If you check books out of a public library that are about the Muslims of the 11th Century, you have probably activated a government trigger and they will now track your library records, your phone records, computer records and do on. Eventually they'll probably find out that you are not a terrorist, but doesn't that upset you in the slightest? To be treated like a criminal and have your privacy invaded simply because of what you chose to do your paper on?

It's just an example, but you can bet it's already happening in the real world.

I agree completely. Government seizes power, it rarely surrenders it. Even if this kind of power were used for good, who is to say it will remain that way indefinitely? Several generations from now it could be viewed as the foundations of a police state.

It wasn't so long ago that Carter created the Department of Education. Republicans were outraged, deeming it an unnecessary power grab of the federal government over local institutions. Reagan wanted the entire thing abolished. He failed to do so, as did Bush Sr. The current Bush embraced it and passed even more federal legislation (very poor legislation at that) designed to set standards for local schools. I understand this isn't exactly a fair comparison, as terrorists and education policy aren't the same thing. But it does illustrate the patterns of government control, its hesitancy to relenquish such control, and how it expands over time.

[Arcarius]

well im not American but i sure as hell dont want Harper or Martin, spying on me to try and find terrirost, it is totally and invasion of privacy, and i dont think Bush should be allowed to spy on the Americans, he is president but that doesnt mean he can go into random peoples lives and see what they do, now does it?

[GeneralLee]

No-brainer, if the dems controlled congress they'd be talking about impeachment. As things are we'll be lucky if the program is ever stopped. The only possible scenario would be the courts declaring it illegal (damn activist judges ).

[Legio XX Valeria Victrix]

It really amazes me how people are so trusting of their government. You'd think with all the scandals and political fiascos of the last 40 years, from Watergate right up through 'Plame-gate' that people would get the hint that government is not to be trusted without first obtaining as many facts as one can get. It scares the hell out of me to see all these people today saying "Oh, well if the government needs to spy on us then I'm sure they have good reason to." They're spying on avergage American citizens, and this somehow doesn't elicit a visceral disgust at what they are doing, and how they're being so brazen about it.

[RZZZA]

Hey, I'm an american and I said I wanted to see people HANG over this. If aiding and abetting enemies of the U.S. is seen as treason to the U.S. government....well then, U.S. government corruption, illegal activities with the victims being american CITIZENS? Thats comparable to government treason.

[Removed_user_012521]

Hey Im all for this spy program. If your not an enemy of the US they you got nothing to hide so stop complaining.


Also drastic measures need to be taken in war, especialy this war. You can not expect civil liberties to not take a hit in the kind of war we're fighting. We're not trying to stop an invasion, we're trying to stop a dozen men out of millions from killing Americans. So of course civil liberties are going to take a hit, its just the price of this kind of war.

[Legio XX Valeria Victrix]

Hey Im all for this spy program. If your not an enemy of the US they you got nothing to hide so stop complaining.


Also drastic measures need to be taken in war, especialy this war. You can not expect civil liberties to not take a hit in the kind of war we're fighting. We're not trying to stop an invasion, we're trying to stop a dozen men out of millions from killing Americans. So of course civil liberties are going to take a hit, its just the price of this kind of war.

Why must they take a hit? Can you tell me what tangible results are going to come from this spying program that will make us safer? Why do you trust the people running it so much? Can you not acknowledge the fact that maybe someone in the position to spy on Americans might abuse that and spy on someone who doesn't deserve to be spied on?

Think of it personally, as well. Are you prepared to be spied on, for doing anything that might trigger a government probe into your life? Are you prepared for your family to be spied on? Doesn't that bother you at all, guilty or no? Need I remind you that the Patriot Act has led to the capture of fewer than 200 authentic suspected terrorists. Frankly, I think you have bought the governments line hook-line-and sinker, and this is what appalls me. What you are doing is essentially giving up your own freedom. You might as well gift-wrap a box with a note inside that says 'My Freedom', and mail it straight to GWB. Not to mention that it goes against 220 years of American cultural thought. But hey, all that is nothing compared to your own personal safety, right?

[Hub'ite]

Why is everyone complaining about it now? The government has been doing it for years. Clinton did it and now Bush is too. Who cares? If they wanna listen to me and my girlfriend fight on the phone they have my full permission.

[Removed_user_012521]

Why must they take a hit? Can you tell me what tangible results are going to come from this spying program that will make us safer? Why do you trust the people running it so much? Can you not acknowledge the fact that maybe someone in the position to spy on Americans might abuse that and spy on someone who doesn't deserve to be spied on?

If they don't deserve to be spied on then the government propably won't find them talking with terrorist, consequently nothing will happen.

Civil Liberties in wars like this take a hit because we are no fighting against an invading army, we are fighting a couple dozen people in the population that can do a tremendous amount of damage, how else to you expect us to fight this war without violating civil liberties a little bit?

Need I remind you that the Patriot Act has led to the capture of fewer than 200 authentic suspected terrorists.

And how many did it take to bring down the World Trade Center?

You might as well gift-wrap a box with a note inside that says 'My Freedom', and mail it straight to GWB. Not to mention that it goes against 220 years of American cultural thought. But hey, all that is nothing compared to your own personal safety, right?

More drastic measures have been taken befor with little effect on long term civil liberties. For instance the internment of the Japaniese-Americans.... a little spying isn't going to hurt much, at least not as much as another attack.

[minimann]

Governments wherever you look exploit the trust given to them. Even as far back as Rome held these policys. Although i personally oppose such spying on citizens of America and the UK etc some spying on known culprits is acceptable. However, persistant spying on innocent citizens who G.W wants to get at just because they are black, a democrat or a muslim etc is absolutely apauling and appropriate legal investigations and punishments should be placed on this matter. Signing human rights laws was ment to put a stop to such dodgy activities sadly it has failed.

[Hub'ite]

However, persistant spying on innocent citizens who G.W wants to get at just because they are black, a democrat or a muslim etc is absolutely apauling and appropriate legal investigations and punishments should be placed on this matter. Signing human rights laws was ment to put a stop to such dodgy activities sadly it has failed.

Now where did you hear this liberal crap from? What would being black or democrat mean to Bush? If a muslim(or any other race) is making an international call to a suspected terrorist state then we have every right to listen to what their up to. Bush has no reason to listen to black people or democrats. He's not Clinton.