AI Get any Settlement Growth Bonuses?

[Kolaris8472]

I've been trying to tweak my settlement_mechanics file to adjust population growth for a 2TPY campaign, and it seems to be just about right for me, the player.

But the AI is still thundering ahead in population growth, upgrading most towns to cities in the first 30 turns.

Is there a script that increases population growth for the AI if there's a general in the settlement? If there is, would removing totally ruin the AI?

Thanks

[Gorrrrrn]

You may find removing direct population growth bonuses from the export_descr_buildings.txt file may help.

as you know from sett_mech there are many factors that can give population growth - some of those you'll probably need to keep in the EDB.

[flankstakes]

same here, I am in turn 40 and most AI castles are fortresses now. Byzantines made their whole western border (durazzo, arta, skopje(?)) fortresses so fast. I feel like cheating when I capture their fortresses able to train advanced units.

[PerXX]

And when you do conquer them, you notice that the AI haven't build any farms or growth structures at all, and still advance much faster than your towns with 6+ chivalry generals, low taxes and maxed farms/growth buildings.

[Ichon]

Yeah... not sure of the logic of this. Having AI have a growth bonus is ok but not that much. Defeats the whole point of making players have lower growth. They just need to wait a few turns to capture the best AI Fortresses then. The AI growth bonus should just be enough to offset that they might not build farms first or use high chivalry generals. Player using a high chivalry general might beat them to Citadel first but its unlikely player can develop all their cities as effectively as AI given a wider but just enough to offset poor AI choices bonus.

[Kolaris8472]

Thanks Rozanov, I was looking in the wrong place.

These bonuses seem really excessive, I'm going to try halving them and see if that's a happy medium. It looks like they're highest with lower level settlements, which would explain why the AI can get to Cities/Fortresses soooo quickly but then seems to immediately start losing population.

[Tuatha Mordred]

I'm interested to lower population growth rates for the AI. I too find that the leg-up for the AI in terms of pop growth can be turned to an advantage by the human player simply by delaying conquest. Thanks to Rozanov's tip, I found the below code-snippet in the EDB:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

wooden_pallisade city requires factions { northern_european, middle_eastern, eastern_european, greek, southern_european, }
{
capability
{
wall_level 0
tower_level 1
free_upkeep bonus 2
happiness_bonus bonus 1 requires not event_counter is_the_ai 1
recruitment_slots 1 requires not event_counter freeze_recr_pool 1
happiness_bonus bonus 2 requires event_counter is_the_ai 1
law_bonus bonus 2 requires event_counter is_the_ai 1
population_growth_bonus bonus 2 requires event_counter is_the_ai 1 and not event_counter thinks_of_his_people 1
trade_base_income_bonus bonus 3 requires event_counter is_the_ai 1
religion_level bonus 2 requires event_counter is_the_ai 1
income_bonus bonus 100 requires event_counter is_the_ai 1
population_growth_bonus bonus 3 requires event_counter thinks_of_his_people 1
income_bonus bonus -200 requires event_counter thinks_of_his_people 1 and not event_counter is_the_ai 1
construction_cost_bonus_stone bonus 10 requires event_counter wise_administrator 1 and not event_counter is_the_ai 1
construction_cost_bonus_wooden bonus 10 requires event_counter wise_administrator 1 and not event_counter is_the_ai 1
construction_cost_bonus_stone bonus 60 requires event_counter is_the_ai 1
construction_cost_bonus_wooden bonus 60 requires event_counter is_the_ai 1
construction_cost_bonus_religious bonus 20 requires event_counter strictly_religious 1
}
material wooden
construction 3
cost 800
settlement_min village
upgrades
{
wooden_wall
}
}

Am I correct to assume that commenting out all the parts in the EDB with "population_growth_bonus bonus XXX requires event_counter is_the_ai 1 and not event_counter thinks_of_his_people 1" will do?

[Gorrrrrn]

TM - yes those are the ones to comment out.

settlement population factor has many inputs:

<root>
    <factor_modifiers>
        <factor name="SPF_FARMING_LEVEL">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
            <city_modifier value="0.80"/>
            <castle_modifier value="0.70"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_FARMS_BUILT">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_HEALTH">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
            <castle_modifier value="1.0"/>
            <city_modifier value="0.8"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="25"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_BUILDINGS">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_TAX_RATE_BONUS">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_BUILDINGS_FUN">
            <pip_modifier value="0.5"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="25"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_GOVERNORS_INFLUENCE">
            <pip_modifier value="0.8"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="8"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_TRADE">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
            <castle_modifier value="0.15"/>
            <city_modifier value="0.2"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="20"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_SQUALOUR">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
            <castle_modifier value="1.1"/>
            <city_modifier value="1.5"/>
            <pip_min value="0"/>
            <pip_max value="40"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_PLAGUE">
            <pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
            <castle_modifier value="0.75"/>
            <city_modifier value="1.5"/>
        </factor>
        <factor name="SPF_TAX_RATE_PENALTY">
            <pip_modifier value="1.5"/>
        </factor>

the main negative ones are squalor and plague and tax penalty, the others boost it, so generally the population will continue to grow without the building bonuses.

the main limiter I found was squalor. The current <pip_max value="40"/> will effectively cap populations as it overwhelms just about everything.
Reduce to 32 and populations should find it easier reach the level where settlements will grow enough to be upgraded with population growth bonuses.

[Tuatha Mordred]

Very nice, Rozanov. Have some rep with that.

I understand that Squalor works as a means of imposing diminishing returns on population growth i.e. if growth percentage remains constant as a city's pop got larger and larger, the growth would quickly become exponential. Squalor exists to curb this exponential increase by decreasing growth percentage as pop gets larger. This results in a more even growth curve.

I'm trying to understand how Squalor Max will help. I'm given to think that putting it from 40 to 20 will provide a lower ceiling on how bad squalor can get. If set from 40 to 80, what will be the effect I wonder? Will this actually make settlements reverse-grow? Or will Squalor only start counting up when pop reaches past a certain point?

I love the 2TPY game for the longer character lifespan. But population growth (and possibly income) is still too high such that I'll have all castles as fortresses by turn 50 - that's year 1125. If possible, I'd like to make it only possible to have fortresses around the time the Mongols invade. This will make Citadels something to really aspire to.

[Kolaris8472]

	<factor_modifiers>
		<factor name="SPF_FARMING_LEVEL">
			<pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
			<city_modifier value="0.60"/>
			<castle_modifier value="0.50"/>
		</factor>
		<factor name="SPF_FARMS_BUILT">
			<pip_modifier value="0.50"/>
		</factor>
		<factor name="SPF_HEALTH">
			<pip_modifier value="0.70"/>
			<castle_modifier value="1.0"/>
			<city_modifier value="0.8"/>
			<pip_min value="0"/>
			<pip_max value="25"/>
		</factor>
		<factor name="SPF_BUILDINGS">
			<pip_modifier value="0.50"/>
		</factor>
		<factor name="SPF_TAX_RATE_BONUS">
			<pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
		</factor>
		<factor name="SPF_BUILDINGS_FUN">
			<pip_modifier value="0.30"/>
			<pip_min value="0"/>
			<pip_max value="25"/>
		</factor>
		<factor name="SPF_GOVERNORS_INFLUENCE">
			<pip_modifier value="0.8"/>
			<pip_min value="0"/>
			<pip_max value="6"/>
		</factor>
		<factor name="SPF_TRADE">
			<pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
			<castle_modifier value="0.15"/>
			<city_modifier value="0.2"/>
			<pip_min value="0"/>
			<pip_max value="20"/>
		</factor>
		<factor name="SPF_SQUALOUR">
			<pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
			<castle_modifier value="1.1"/>
			<city_modifier value="1.5"/>
			<pip_min value="0"/>
			<pip_max value="40"/>
		</factor>
		<factor name="SPF_PLAGUE">
			<pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
			<castle_modifier value="0.75"/>
			<city_modifier value="1.5"/>
		</factor>
		<factor name="SPF_TAX_RATE_PENALTY">
			<pip_modifier value="1.5"/>
		</factor>

This, along with removing the AI's growth bonuses, is what I've been playing with in my current campaign. Turn 140 atm. I wouldn't recommend it exactly, I plan to make a few changes, but it helps.

Right now (1170) I've managed through quite a bit of effort to get 3 cities up and running. I have 1 Fortress.

The AI has just started to upgrade to Fortresses as well, there are about 5 on the map at the moment. Upgrades to cities are a bit sparser, I've only seen 3 emerge so far.

[Tuatha Mordred]

I see you basically halved (or slightly above that) any numbers that are pro-growth. 1170 and only five fortresses is about what I'm looking for. I'd do the same thing but you mentioned it's not something you'd recommend... why is that? What would you do differently? Make it even slower?

[Kolaris8472]

The main thing I plan to change is giving the AI back a couple of its bonuses, mostly under the City Wall and above building entries. Its cities aren't having consistent growth anymore; the ones that got upgraded were more based on luck, as the AI left some high-chivalry generals in there for a while.

Pastry Shop is another thing I need to tune down to 1% growth. Just makes it too easy for the player.

Buildings alone aren't enough to get to a Large City, you need a good governor. That basically means the AI is in trouble. Meanwhile with careful management I've gotten a 6 Chiv, Architect, Urban Planner, Royally Extravagant governor in Novgorod that's put the city at +3.5% growth at 18000 population. I like that managing governor growth traits is important, but that's just too high.

[sentinel37]

Can someone summarize what I need to do exactly to remove the AI growth bonuses? Do I simply comment out the section as explained by "Tuatha Mordred." How exactly do I comment that section out? Do I use a special character key?

[Ferdiad]

Use ;

[Tuatha Mordred]

Use ;

What Ferdiad said.

Also, consider lowering the growth rate factors across the board (for both player and AI) as explained by Kolaris but perhaps not as much as how he/she did it. I recently lowered mine to levels slightly above that of what Kolaris did. Still too early in my new Lithuania campaign to report of the effects but as long as it's lower than what it was and higher than Kolaris', I shouldn't be too far off from ideal.

Whether you play 2TPY or 1TPY, Citadels and Huge Cities shouldn't just "happen". Special effort should be required to achieve them and they should be achieved much later in the years.

[Ferdiad]

Use ;

In front of the line.

[Ruprecht]

In front of the line.

Oh right, i did see that in your post, but was unsure where to put it. That and it didn't make sense to put "Use ;" in front of something you don't want to use lol. Thanks for the clarification.

[Ferdiad]

Oh right, i did see that in your post, but was unsure where to put it. That and it didn't make sense to put "Use ;" in front of something you don't want to use lol. Thanks for the clarification.

It tells the game to ignore that line.

[Ziltoid]

In my past few Late Era campaigns, i have stopped even trying to reach Huge Cities and Citadels myself, its nearly impossible, and in meanwhile, AI seems to bump out Citadels all over after 50 turns or so anyway, so i just conquer them instead and save myself from the trouble. But its sad since it makes the whole city developing thing feel kinda obsolete and useless atm in terms of reaching those final stages.

As an example, in my Novgorod campaign, around 1270 my Teutonic Order HQ Fortress is several thousands away still from Citadel status, and seemed only way to reach there was to get really lucky with General getting the all the best traits and bonuses, and then going on war just to release all enemies alive just to bump up chivalry to max... even then he might die to old age before reaching that single Fortress to Citadel. Meanwhile, went to fight war and Scandinavia alone had 3 Citadels, Polish had one, Swedes had one, Norveigians had 2, Germans had atleast 1 if not more etc. etc.

ps. how can i just increase population myself through console commands? think thats what i will do from now on, once maxing out all growth buildings in my main fortress in influential area to get atleast one without conquering.

[Ruprecht]

In my past few Late Era campaigns, i have stopped even trying to reach Huge Cities and Citadels myself, its nearly impossible, and in meanwhile, AI seems to bump out Citadels all over after 50 turns or so anyway, so i just conquer them instead and save myself from the trouble. But its sad since it makes the whole city developing thing feel kinda obsolete and useless atm in terms of reaching those final stages.

As an example, in my Novgorod campaign, around 1270 my Teutonic Order HQ Fortress is several thousands away still from Citadel status, and seemed only way to reach there was to get really lucky with General getting the all the best traits and bonuses, and then going on war just to release all enemies alive just to bump up chivalry to max... even then he might die to old age before reaching that single Fortress to Citadel. Meanwhile, went to fight war and Scandinavia alone had 3 Citadels, Polish had one, Swedes had one, Norveigians had 2, Germans had atleast 1 if not more etc. etc.

ps. how can i just increase population myself through console commands? think thats what i will do from now on, once maxing out all growth buildings in my main fortress in influential area to get atleast one without conquering.

I really couldn't agree more about city management and governance being nothing more than an exercise in futility, the AI will just boost ahead with their cheesy Pop-bonuses no matter how good you are. This is the exact reason i chose to remove them.

Regards adding/removing Population, you could try "Add_Population xxxx" where XXXX is the desired amount of people. I used this in RomeTW to counter Over-Population, though i never tried it in M2TW. Hope that helps.