Haradrim Empire

[Tuskin4]

Now in Tolkeins universe was Harad ever a Empire or atleast united under a single ruler?

Also are Haronder people united under a single ruler and were do there loyalties lye Harad, Gondor or neither?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

It's called the empire of Harad in this LORE BASED mod.


Also, it'd be hard for tribal warlords to field large amounts of mumakil and heavy cavalry.

[Aradan]

The Haradrim were different tribes/kingdoms, not a single 'state'. What you see as "Empire of Harad" in the mod is supposed to be one of these factions, that has managed to unite the lands that are visible on our map (Harad is actually a huge region, you don't get to see most of it on the map). Apart from that, it was a gameplay decision to have one haradrim faction, because we'd otherwise have to have 3-4 small kingdoms that would individually be weak (since we don't have a way to make them all ally against Gondor, for example, as they generally did).

Harondor was once part of Gondor, but after the Kinstrife it became a disputed region and was deserted. The people there would probably be a mix of Gondorians and Haradrim, with mix loyalties as well.

In DoM the fact that Harad was not a unified realm has been stressed; you'll notice immediately after loading a campaign.

[Tuskin4]

In DoM the fact that Harad was not a unified realm has been stressed; you'll notice immediately after loading a campaign.

What do you mean by that? Low public order?

Since someone brought up the Easterlings it seems the Khamul the Easterling King turned Ringwraith. He the man who united the Easterlings and led the Wainrider invaisions and was killed at the Battle of the Camp or fled to Sauron like the WitchKing.

[Aradan]

What do you mean by that? Low public order?

Nope. But trust me, it will be quite clear.

Far better than they are right now in the mod if you ask me.

Are you referring to all the Haradrim units or a specific 'tier'?

[Tuskin4]

[QUOTE=Aradan;8911692]Nope. But trust me, it will be quite clear.
Alright i will play Fourth Age DoM and i will see what this obsticle when playing Harad.

[Tuskin4]

Are you referring to all the Haradrim units or a specific 'tier'?

The Empire of Harad could use more variety in its calvery.

[Serech]

Why is there no Hararian Camel rider unit? I´m guessing theres some very good reason for this I have forgotten...

[Thangaror]

Are you referring to all the Haradrim units or a specific 'tier'?

No, only the better tiers. Skirmishers, Archers, Footmen and Spearmen of Harad are fine.
Other infantry units (cavalry is fine, almost too numerous) could need a boost concerning morale and armour values. Especially the Umbar Guards should be on a equal level with the MaA (concerning stats, not numbers). They are the best soldiers in Harad and their scale armours is really impressive but I think their attack is only 10 which is even lower than serpent spears!
Serpent Spears and Harondor Swords also wear lamellar armour, the first not being mere peasants forced into the army or marauding barbarians like the Easterlings, the latter may even be heavily influenced by the RK.

Uh, btw. I just saw that Spearmen of Harad and Umbar Guards have a shield value of 5, Serpents but a 4. Not sure if the file I looked at is the most recent but this discrepancy seems weird to me.

Since someone brought up the Easterlings it seems the Khamul the Easterling King turned Ringwraith. He the man who united the Easterlings and led the Wainrider invaisions and was killed at the Battle of the Camp or fled to Sauron like the WitchKing.

That's some nonsence, probably spread by some merchandise fools, who also made up names and background stories for all the Nazgûl.

The Wainriders were defeated by Earnil in 1944 T.A. The Nazgûl made their apperance more than 3,000 years before!

Though indeed Khamûl was one of the Easterlings, and the only Nazgûl to whom Tolkien gave name and background. Though he never elaborated it deeper. Now, actually I wonder why he started a novel about the Fourth Age and didn't elaborate a story about the Nazgûl, the peoples of Middle-earth and the Númenóreans during the Dark Years (yeah, there are some short writings about it, but actually there's a huge potential!).

[Tuskin4]

That's some nonsence, probably spread by some merchandise fools, who also made up names and background stories for all the Nazgûl.

The Wainriders were defeated by Earnil in 1944 T.A. The Nazgûl made their apperance more than 3,000 years before!

Though indeed Khamûl was one of the Easterlings, and the only Nazgûl to whom Tolkien gave name and background. Though he never elaborated it deeper. Now, actually I wonder why he started a novel about the Fourth Age and didn't elaborate a story about the Nazgûl, the peoples of Middle-earth and the Númenóreans during the Dark Years (yeah, there are some short writings about it, but actually there's a huge potential!).

Oh i didnt get the idea from merchandise fools. I thought it made sense also if the Nazgul made their apperance more then 3000 years before what about the Witch King and the destruction of Arnor? He may have been a Nazgul already and with the ring he was given he could unite the Easterlings.

[Thangaror]

Oh i didnt get the idea from merchandise fools. I thought it made sense also if the Nazgul made their apperance more then 3000 years before what about the Witch King and the destruction of Arnor? He may have been a Nazgul already and with the ring he was given he could unite the Easterlings.

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what you want to say.
Of course the Witch King has been a Nazgûl when he cast down Arnor. He has been one ever since around 2000 Second Age.

[Thangaror]

Indeed Harad was a pretty much unknown to the Dúnedain of the Third and Fourth Age. There are no details about the different tribes, but only that was closest to Gondor of the more important principalities Umbar and the mightiest of the principalities that had etablished in the north of Harad (or perhaps even the mighties of all). Actually the coast had been inhabited and colonized in the Second Age by the Númenóreans and especially amongst the Corsairs of Umbar there's still a good amount of dúnedainic blood present. It seems that there rose quite some city states at these places the Númenóreans had built there harbours. About the Haradrian hinterland far less is known (that means: nothing). Usually the tribes were divided and at strive, but from time to time one of them (usually Umbar) gained sovereignty over the others.
In general the Haradrim were fierce and disciplined warriors with a powerful cavalry that surpassed (at least in numbers) the Gondorians but in skill failed to compete with the Rohirrim. Also they were skillful mariners. Given the númenórean background and especially the escape of the supporters of the gondorian usurper Castamir to Umbar, they were for sure a force to reckon with and, besides the Dúnedain of course, probably could muster some of the best trained and best equipped soldiers of all mannish people in Middle-earth. Far better than they are right now in the mod if you ask me.


Btw, we have the same situation in Rhûn. The Easterlings consisted out of many many tribes, even more than the Haradrians and the differences between them seem to be far greater, whilst the Haradrim were pretty uniform.

[Revelo]

The main reason Harad are united is due to their hatred of the Reunited Kingdom, the fact the RK is much weakened it only incentive. They have had Black Númenóreans influencing them since the Second Age or there abouts, around the time when Ar-Pharazôn had captured Sauron and then let him influence him into attacking Valinor and building monuments to Morgoth.

Remember the mod takes a few liberties with what Tolkien has written, such as him saying Elissar made everlasting peace with the Easterlings and Southorns. But then it also cleverly remembers that Aragon let Herumor live before the battle at the Black Gates, so it makes perfect sense that he would have fled far away, then come back to seek his revenge and achieve what Morgoth and Sauron failed to do. makes you wish Aragon had killed him like in the films but the attention to detail that the FATW team have put in the mod is nothing short of remarkable.

Actually, the idea of Herumor being the new dark lord is an interesting parallel to the decline of magic and all things mystical in the lands of Middle-earth, we have gone from a fallen Ainu to a Maia to an immortal man.

[Aradan]

I think what he's saying is that it is conceivable that it was Khamul who united the Easterlings against Gondor, in the same way that Witch-king formed Angmar to destroy Arnor.

[Aradan]

What Count said.

There is no mention of camels in Tolkien. Does that mean they did not exist? No, but why we think it's far-fetched if we invent such a unit just because it would be different. One could argue that if camels had been used in any military role, Tolkien would have mentioned them as an unusual unit during a battle (eg Pelennor), in the same way Mumakil or the Men of Far Harad are mentioned.

Harad has light swords, light spears, light skirmishers, heavy spears, heavy bows/swords and very very very very very heavy elephants in terms of cavalry. I can't really see a glaring gap. What kind of unit would you add?

[StealthEvo]

You are missing the heavy skirmisher role there. But i cannot see Camels fulfilling it. Perhaps expanding on the Corsair troop tree. They do currently fulfil medium swords and intermediate archers.

[Aradan]

Harad essentially gets all their heavy navy from Corsairs. It might not result in 30 unique units, but going from fishing boats to marauders is a huge improevent, and one that allows Harad to keep its sea trade (which earns them a lot of money).

As for heavy skirmishers, it's a bit of an oxymoron and I don't think it would fit Harad's 'style'.

[StealthEvo]

True say. It is all about teh sexy mumaks

[Thangaror]

Harad has too much cavalry. xD
Mûmakil are heavy skirmishers! They throw spears, thus they are skirmishers...
Mounted bowmen would make some sense, but thus Harad would become really op I think.

I'd like to see a "Black Númenórean" unit. Not "real" Númenóreans, they are extinct, but some heirs of Castamir. They are kinda represented by the Umbar Guards but some infantry bodyguard or elite Corsairs would be awesome.

[Tuskin4]

About expanding the Umbar troop tree i have a few ideas and pictures to give a concept.
Umbar Nobles mounted and dismounted(descendents of Umbar rebels and the Castmiri)


Umbar Guard Archers
Corsair crossbowmen

Umbar militia or Umbar levies