my "i dont know LORE tread" (previously "my problem with Orcs...")

[Toho]

alright so i have been having fun with the mod and i have been trying out Reikguard and Khorne but i always wanted to try out the Orcs but there are several things stopping me.

first i am kind of a WoW player and when think of orcs i immediately thing of the WoW orcs. the look strong, fierce and intelligent. but the warhammer orcs look....deformed and retarded, i mean literately mentally and physically retarded(they are also apparently Muslim XD). so my question is why are the warhammer orcs, hunchedback, physically deformed and most importantly really, really stupid.
also why is the term "boyz" used? they are not "boys" they are obviously grown men...orcs...whatever you get the point. when i look at the Orcs i feel like i am fighting handicapped and deformed big kids who appear to be green.

sorry for the orc fans out there but i just dont know why workshop wanted to debase these poor creatures so much.

[UberGrunt]

Thing with Warhammer orcs is that you can look at them 2 ways.
1: Not taking them seriously I mean they're basically the comedy relief of the world (Warhammer Fantasy is described as Dark and Grim but you also need a laugh from time to time! and their cockney accent coupled with their way of acting is certainly silly)

2: Taking them seriously.... What I mean by this is that Orcs are essentially made for one thing and one thing only: War. They thrive for battle they're whole society is based on strength and this alone makes Orcs brutal if not one of the most evil creatures in the Warhammer world. They have no pity, no remorse and little conscious. All they want is to fight, and this means Doom to everything that they see as "sometin' ta fight!" Also, orcs are brutes, Barbarians, if you will, this makes them seem stupid, however, the good thing about orcs is that they have the power of the WAAAGH! at their side and this coupled with "Intelligent" and brutal Warbosses makes the Orcs a horrible menace excusing the fact that they sound "stupid" XP

[DarkReborn]

Keep in mind, that both orcs from warcraft and warhammer, while physically somewhat close (big, strong, green) come from 2 very different archetypes:

Warcraft: the idealized honourable warrior. Based on the samurai, the bushido and such. Probably more Conan the barbarian than samurai at some points. If I remember well from Warcraft 2/3, at some point they were deamon-possessed or such.

Wathammer: the more stereotyped barbarian. True darwinist culture (the strongest at the top, to put it easy), all their lives revolve arround war, as they were made for it. If WH40k lore can be linked to WHFB, they're a race of genetically engineered "perfect" warriors, whose DNA is a mix of fungus and mammal, and while they have rudimentary intelligence, they make up with cunning animal instinct.
They aren't made to look pretty or cool, they're made for war.

[Toho]

so whats up with the "boyz" stuff? its just sucks out all the savagery and barabarism as you put it.

"me orc boy" herp durp

[DarkReborn]

Well, they're supposed to be the comic relief also (any tabletop player knows that), so the english cockney accents and the "boyz" "nobz" and all are just that, comedic value.

In Warcraft the Orcs aren't very serious anyway, like the orc hero with asian accent from WC3, or the fact that they continously say zug-zug.

[Toho]

Well, they're supposed to be the comic relief also (any tabletop player knows that), so the english cockney accents and the "boyz" "nobz" and all are just that, comedic value.

In Warcraft the Orcs aren't very serious anyway, like the orc hero with asian accent from WC3, or the fact that they continously say zug-zug.

i guess your right but i must ask you something that has been bothering me for a while....what the hell is in your avatar? ...is that a woman? a dog? i dont understand....

Appearances can be deceiving. Games Workshop Orcs/Orks emphasise strength, brute force, cunning intelligence and an almost comic love of mayhem at the expense for subtlety, strategy, and civility.

GW Orcs/Orks bastardisation of language also underlines their brutal and rugged demeanour, together with their single-minded drive for conflict at the expense of things like the mastery of language.

Adding 'z' or whatever emphasises their lack of sophistication yet indicates that they are not total cretins as they have the intent, just not total clarity of expression.

Comparing the rich, diverse and hugely documented GW world against WoW is the problem, as GW has almost 30 years (if not more) worth of material compared to WoW, which for many is completely inferior as WoW stole/borrowed/copied all their ideas from Tolkien and GW to make their fantasy worlds.

That is simply my opinion and doubtless others with claim otherwise.

Now everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'm no Orc/Ork lover (always been an Elf/Eldar man myself), but where you see them as infantile, retarded etc others do not and love the style of play they facilitate.

I suggest you read an Orc/Ork army book or background literature if you wish to gain a more comprehensive understanding of their origins and style.

For my part, I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than read anything WoW related... and besides, I'm too busy playing Call of Warhammer.

if your talking about WoW books then aye, i agree with you entirely. terrible, terrible works of literature. complete pieces of garbage.

[DarkReborn]

i guess your right but i must ask you something that has been bothering me for a while....what the hell is in your avatar? ...is that a woman? a dog? i dont understand....

Neither, it is a reaally old avatar which you just remembered me to change. It was a villain from an old super nintendo game from my youth.

And yes, warcraft, and blizzard books in general are wasted paper. But I guess that there's people that buy them. Poor souls.

Personally, warcraft ended in WC3.

[Evil_Ewok]

alright so i have been having fun with the mod and i have been trying out Reikguard and Khorne but i always wanted to try out the Orcs but there are several things stopping me.

first i am kind of a WoW player and when think of orcs i immediately thing of the WoW orcs. the look strong, fierce and intelligent. but the warhammer orcs look....deformed and retarded, i mean literately mentally and physically retarded(they are also apparently Muslim XD). so my question is why are the warhammer orcs, hunchedback, physically deformed and most importantly really, really stupid.
also why is the term "boyz" used? they are not "boys" they are obviously grown men...orcs...whatever you get the point. when i look at the Orcs i feel like i am fighting handicapped and deformed big kids who appear to be green.

sorry for the orc fans out there but i just dont know why workshop wanted to debase these poor creatures so much.

Appearances can be deceiving. Games Workshop Orcs/Orks emphasise strength, brute force, cunning intelligence and an almost comic love of mayhem at the expense for subtlety, strategy, and civility.

GW Orcs/Orks bastardisation of language also underlines their brutal and rugged demeanour, together with their single-minded drive for conflict at the expense of things like the mastery of language.

Adding 'z' or whatever emphasises their lack of sophistication yet indicates that they are not total cretins as they have the intent, just not total clarity of expression.

Comparing the rich, diverse and hugely documented GW world against WoW is the problem, as GW has almost 30 years (if not more) worth of material compared to WoW, which for many is completely inferior as WoW stole/borrowed/copied all their ideas from Tolkien and GW to make their fantasy worlds.

That is simply my opinion and doubtless others with claim otherwise.

Now everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'm no Orc/Ork lover (always been an Elf/Eldar man myself), but where you see them as infantile, retarded etc others do not and love the style of play they facilitate.

I suggest you read an Orc/Ork army book or background literature if you wish to gain a more comprehensive understanding of their origins and style.

For my part, I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than read anything WoW related... and besides, I'm too busy playing Call of Warhammer.

[Zorander]

alright so i have been having fun with the mod and i have been trying out Reikguard and Khorne but i always wanted to try out the Orcs but there are several things stopping me.

first i am kind of a WoW player and when think of orcs i immediately thing of the WoW orcs. the look strong, fierce and intelligent. but the warhammer orcs look....deformed and retarded, i mean literately mentally and physically retarded(they are also apparently Muslim XD). so my question is why are the warhammer orcs, hunchedback, physically deformed and most importantly really, really stupid.
also why is the term "boyz" used? they are not "boys" they are obviously grown men...orcs...whatever you get the point. when i look at the Orcs i feel like i am fighting handicapped and deformed big kids who appear to be green.

sorry for the orc fans out there but i just dont know why workshop wanted to debase these poor creatures so much.

Same here, big fan of orks but their look is terrible, actually warhammer orks i think look pretty bad ass and awesome (play warhammer online) but ork looks in this game was taken from Mark Of Chaos a RTS for warhammer fantasy but the game devs screwed it up getting it -just ok- reviews. Im sure if the orks looked cooler in Marks of chaos we would have better looking orks in this game.


So dont really blame workshop, when your free you should see the ork models for tabletop they look awesome, god knows we should find the guy who design that ork look for the game and have him shot, hopefully in the face. Plus your assuming orks are stupid cause they look stupid, orks are actually very cunning, and ruthless. (and again look badass, damn you mark of chaos designer)

[King-Morgoth]

As other people have said, the Orks in Warhammer are basically the joke race, and everyone needs SOMEONE to laugh at in the world, and the Orks fit that roll perfectly (although they are still good fighters, as others have mentioned).


Also, please dont associate WoW with Wc3 D:< the people who made WoW =/= the people who made Wc3, and Wc4 (They will, trust me, anyone who thinks it ended with Arthas just sitting there doesnt know jack ), and not ALL the Warcraft books are bad, heck some of them are even downright good, but lets drop the subject shall we? Don't want this turning into another Warcraft vs Warhammer thread do we?

[randir14]

I guess if your only experience with Orcs is from WoW I can see why you'd have trouble with Warhammer Orcs. WoW Orcs are not typical for the fantasy genre, in other games and books they're almost always depicted as dumb evil brutes. Warhammer Orcs just add humor to that mix.
By the way, Warcraft 1 started as a Warhammer game until Blizzard lost the license. So basically Warcraft and Starcraft are ripoffs of Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K.

[Klierowski]

You Smiling of da orc boy'z ?! i shall start smash'ing and stoumping ya little one ! .

Everyone try to laugh of the 12 Ft hight big black orc The Grimgor - i don't think he is funny...Archaon the chaos commander also as i think.

[Karion]

I can't agree more with some people, in my opinion a prefer the warhammer orks, why? while they are just make for war and live for it, they still can be funny with the weapons and inventions they do (40k specially, who can hate the big make with the warp cannon that throw goblins xD) but still be a great menace to everyone that fight them

The warcraft orcs are not orks, just samurais with green skin, with all the theme of being a gentlemen and the honour of the warrior they loose any trace of a real ork, pretty boring in my opinion compare to the green giant that like to smash thing with anything or just kill goblins for fun.
(note: i played wc3 before any warhammer fantasy/40k game)

[Toho]

woa wait a minute the Orcs fight Chaos? i thought they were allies. wow the "i dont know the Lore" thread is actually more true then i though XD

[Ethien]

woa wait a minute the Orcs fight Chaos? i thought they were allies. wow the "i dont know the Lore" thread is actually more true then i though XD

Orcs fight everyone. Why? Because they enjoy fighting, they enjoy killing more than anything. There is no political, spiritual or material gains for the orcs. They simply enjoy smashin', breakin', steppin', puntin', kickin', slashin', rollin' and pulverizing their enemies. It doesn't matter whether they're Empire, Elves, Dwarfs or Chaos. Its whoever is in the proximity.

[Zorander]

woa wait a minute the Orcs fight Chaos? i thought they were allies. wow the "i dont know the Lore" thread is actually more true then i though XD

im assuming your saying this based on the warhammer online Age of reckoning. Wrong actually, if you read the story behind it the Druchii kidnap the orc warboss and give him power to make a mighty WAAGH and making him think it was his idea so that he would destroy the dwarves, who would call upon the help of the empire, who would have to send troops to aid the dwarves but having trouble with a Chaos invasion at the same time, thus making the empire send for aid from the High Elves, thus leaving Ulthuan unguarded, thus Starting the Druchii invasion.

[King Cow]

I always think of warhammer orks being inspired by english lower class thugs (bydlo in russia?). So if it helps think of english football thugs when abroad.

Also I think the warhammer orks are less comic relief and a bit more evil then the orks in 40k.

[Stronginthearm]

Consider Warhammer as a microcosm of Europe and the surrounding regions, firstly this is going to be exagerated for effect and stereotyped, so don't take it personally or as bias. The Orks are roughly based on Mongols/Russians/ Threat from the East, they are countless in number, they are strong and powerful but lacking in brains compared to the "civilized world" and are focussed only on destruction. You can draw similar connections between other parts of the warhammer world (the empire springs to mind rather quickly along with bretonnia and chaos) But for the most part that's the orks,
from a more lorish perspective they are the "Fun" evil(or more acurately anarchist) race, smash the world because it sounds like fun, historically they are often willing to let a captured enemy go if they think he is going to give them another good fight later on. They regard the world as too complex and other races as tragically disposed to pointless thought, they like to fight and thats what they do. Unlike the Dark elves, who hate the High Elves and regard other races as "lesser" and only fit to serve, or Chaos, who want to make the other races suffer and conquer them. The Orks are not interested for the most part in conquest, yes they will take dwarf holds but for the most part it is more of a staging ground, they don't have so much the vision to build empires. Their great leaders bring together armies of Orks and get them pointed in the right direction, and then release them, rather in the manner of a huntsman untethering a pack of dogs.
They are not really on anybody's side, (even eachother's) but not antagonistic to anybody, if they get a good fight from them, its good times, yes there is the nice quote in COW about the only good dwarf being a dead one but I would suggest this is an example of a race that does not give good fights, dwarves prefer to hide in caves, duck behind shields and kill their enemies at a distance. Orks would see this as cheating and spoiling of good fun, plus those dwarves hide in their holds and rarely come out even to get a good fight, no fun at all.


That's my summary of Orks, Tune in next week when I disect the Goblins

[Zorander]

Consider Warhammer as a microcosm of Europe and the surrounding regions, firstly this is going to be exaggerated for effect and stereotyped, so don't take it personally or as bias. The Orks are roughly based on Mongols/Russians/ Threat from the East, they are countless in number, they are strong and powerful but lacking in brains compared to the "civilized world" and are focused only on destruction.

I dont think they had europe in mind when creating warhammer fantasy unless its about soldier armor and such. When someone says orks i prefer to picture football hooligans. And i seriously doubt the Mongols or Russians lacked brains compared to the civilized world. One does not be greater then alexander the great by lack of brains. Genghis Khan is known for conquering the greatest amount land for any individual leader in history. Not only that but the empire that he created went on to become the largest contiguous empire in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Warhammer%29

Anyway if anything here is a link with better info,

[Stronginthearm]

I dont think they had europe in mind when creating warhammer fantasy unless its about soldier armor and such. When someone says orks i prefer to picture football hooligans. And i seriously doubt the Mongols or Russians lacked brains compared to the civilized world. One does not be greater then alexander the great by lack of brains. Genghis Khan is known for conquering the greatest amount land for any individual leader in history. Not only that but the empire that he created went on to become the largest contiguous empire in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Warhammer%29

Anyway if anything here is a link with better info,

This is a perception issue, 15th century europe was not a nice place, the mongols were a threat yes, but not regarded as a civilized one, think early romans as a comparison, yes the guals were a threat to them but they were still regarded as a barbaric one, same thing with the orks, today we have an image of the mongols that is far different from that of the one employed in 15th century europe,
and respectfully, warhammer is so much a representation of the world that It makes my head hurt:
Empire- Holy Roman Empire: a numer of states that make up a larger whole, based around the worship of a single deity, the elector counts take the part of the princes who elected(in a manner) the emperor, they are largerly independent o one another and are frequently at war, and the city names are almost all in german(well done GW)
Bretonnia-France(romanticized): a large country ruled over by a single king, there is a large degree of serfdom and knights rule over the people, plus the names, so french
Chaos- Norse: an empire of raiders coming down from the north in boats and attacking the people, they have their own gods(pagan) and are crazy hostile to the peoples of the world
Skaven- Black Plague: Now this one is a bit of stretch and not so much a general consensus (check any warhammer websites you will find the others) as my own opinion, they exist in shadows but kill hundreds, they are denied to actually exist come from underground, the rat theme should be obvious, and the "evil poisons" they use, I'm not gonna go further with them but its kinda strait forward
High Elves-Atlantis: An amazingly high cultured society with knowledge of the ancients, who deign to help the rest of humanity, are the source of all kinds of knowledge and wisdom
Lizardmen-Aztecs/Mayans/Incas: large pyramids, live in jungles, more of the ancient wisdom, but are relatively uncivilized
Tomb Kings: Egypt, this is so obvious, I won't even list the similarities
Vampire Counts Transylvania: now lets look at the name and groan Tran-Sylvania... an evil country that people don't come back from, spooky...

I know I skipped a few but my hands are tired and I have a paper due
Then look at the warhammer world geography and how the nations are placed, seriously guys, the fantasy/ fluff is good, but alot of the things GW gave us is based on earth, if you want more citations try Warseer or BellofLostSouls, though the latter is more 40k, not wiki