Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 65

Thread: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,984

    Default Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    I know that a number of people have had and expressed concerns about some things in RS2....the Coward trait, for one. Multiple Roman Rebellions, etc. Rest assured this stuff will be fixed, but it's going to take some time, and I want to explain why.

    First of all, and primarily, the trait system in RS2 was largely (but not purposely) thrown together by Tone and myself at the 'last minute' because of Calvin's passing. That's kind been common knowledge, but the problem was that both of us had to first LEARN how to fix the mess, and then try to do something meaningful. Tone did a magnificent job getting the Roman Leadership working (since Calvin had never really finished it or tested it much). I pretty much took all the other traits besides levy army stuff and tried to 'muddle through'. And, yeah, it's muddled. In fact, as I've been spending 8+ hours a day every day for a month or so going through this mess, I've found inconsistencies, things broken, stuff I 'thought' worked but wasn't, things missing....you get the picture. The traits just never got the kind of attention in RS2 that everything else got.

    That's getting fixed. I have finished a back-breaking wee-hour 'first pass' through the whole system...re-organizing, categorizing and redefining a lot of traits...and getting this thing ready to put in a gob of things we never got around to for RS2's release. It's the last 'major' part of RS2 I wanted to do. And hopefully, with the help of some good folks who are working on the concepting of this all, and perhaps some ideas from you folks as well, this trait system will be as 'original' as much of the other stuff in RS2.

    First, let share with you something that occurred during our testing and development that sheds a great deal of light on how important the traits system is. Back when Calvin was alive and working on this, the rest of us were heavily involved in testing balance and economy. We got it nearly perfect....admittedly, much better I think that it is now.....when Calvin passed, and then we realized that the ONLY thing working in RS2 traits was the Roman leadership. NOTHING else was working at all. The hasty effort to put back a ton of things that should've been working but wasn't resulted in all our balancing efforts being tossed into the grinder! Restoring the traits, in otherwords, threw the economy way off.....and I don't think we ever recovered from that. It was just too much for us to get RS2 done and released, AND learn how to do traits, AND get them all working and tested. So we did the best we could with the talents we had, and released.

    Second, things are different now. I know a lot more about traits and how they work than I did 6 months or a year ago. I'm pretty confident I have a good grasp of it all, and make this system work great. So that's what's happening.

    Third, there are\were a number of concepts and goals that Calvin and I were after in reworking the traits in RTW. The system was 'gamey', unintuitive, and tended to 'reward for nothing'. Like the economy in RTW, the traits were on a virtual 'cruise-control' of giving and giving and giving bonuses for very little effort by the player, and certainly no real proficiency on the part of the characters themselves. People 'came of age', got a slew of traits, and then the game just randomly hiked them up to higher levels 'just because' it was written that way. I would much rather have traits be something worth looking at and studying, with a LOT more role-play and effort on the part of the player involved. That will make RS2 much less a 'cruise-control' mod, I'm afraid, but that's the goal.

    Fourth, there will a much great 'divide' between Governors and Generals. Perhaps even 'startling' to some. Characters in settlements meant to be Governors will get almost (if not) all of the traits that are involved in Government and governing. Likewise, Generals will be the fighters, and will get the military traits. Roles can be switched, but it won't be easy or quick. Sons that 'come of age' will largely do so with nothing of value except health and genetic traits....no more run this 16 year old off to battle, or stick him in a settlement as a governor right off the bat. Thanks to an idea from one of the 'Brain Trust', he'll 'go to school' for a while in a settlement with an academy or above (or the related building in any culture), and go through a 'mentoring' process after which he'll gain a trait that allows him the right to gain any others.....especially government traits, because these are the ones that have such a good or bad effect on the economy. One of our new members pointed out that by the time you get well into a campaign, buildings were in many cases costing HALF the intended price because of governor traits excessively taking 10, 25, 50% of the cost off buildings. That's ok for a few very talented Governors, but by and large such a trait or 'ability' should be rare. So the goal is to create a certain percentage of really good guys, another percentage of kinda bad ones, and the much larger percentage of just 'normal' people who aren't either really good OR bad.

    Fifth, Generals and their traits, as well as the various bonuses they get have been a problem in RS2 from the moment we re-enabled all of the traits. First it was the 'lack of' command stars, and now its better but still a bit excessive IMHO. The Coward trait is obviously broken and has been fixed as well as redefined. A general who gets this trait will be accused of committing a 'cowardly act' for whatever reason...with penalties. But there is now an 'Anti_Coward' trait that allows the General to redeem himself through battle, and the bad trait goes away. In other respects, Generals will earn 'most' of what they can get through battle. Not much will be a 'given'.

    Sixth, several guys are working on some really great Celtic and Greek leadership traits....the Celtic ones are particularly extensive at this stage. Other factions that will get specific attention will be the two 'nomad' factions, Armenia, and the Free Greeks.
    We need more knowledge on the Nomadics, Dacians, Parthians, Ptolemies and the Seleucids. So anyway, a lot of work is being done.

    Feel free to contribute in this thread any ideas or brainstorms.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
    R.I.P. My Beloved Father

  2. #2
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arrabona (Gyõr, Hungary)
    Posts
    6,120

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    First, thanks for this great, superb mod. I cant' use now any other.

    Secondly, I have a question. In original RTW if you had large amount of money eventually your generals turned to be sybarites. Is it the same if RS2?
    maybe off: I also noticed that bribed characters have very little movement points. why?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
    quis enim dubitat quin multis iam saeculis, ex quo vires illius ad Romanorum nomen accesserint, Italia quidem sit gentium domina gloriae vetustate sed Pannonia virtute

    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


  3. #3
    Rex Basiliscus's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Court of Antiochus Epiphanes
    Posts
    1,386

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    @dvk: actually the Seleucids are my favourite faction (such as TTrouble's I believe) and I bet we're going to make them better than anyone (in our opinion of course) when it's their turn. Similarly Ptolemies as well.

    Ofc if someone would make suggestions, I will not complain. But yes, there will be some new stuff regarding traits and at least elevating the Greeks/Hellenistic factions on par with Romans.

    I haven't seen the Celtic development though... where are you doing it

  4. #4

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Does this mean more traits and whatnot for Pontus? (Please say yes ) And thanks for putting all this hard work in even after the mod's release, it's good to know you are still trying to polish things off .


  5. #5
    Rex Basiliscus's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Court of Antiochus Epiphanes
    Posts
    1,386

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    This means more traits and whatnot for everyone

  6. #6

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Basiliscus View Post
    This means more traits and whatnot for everyone
    Yay! Nobody cares about the other factions, they all just want more for Pontus .


  7. #7

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Basiliscus View Post
    @dvk: actually the Seleucids are my favourite faction (such as TTrouble's I believe) and I bet we're going to make them better than anyone (in our opinion of course) when it's their turn. Similarly Ptolemies as well.

    Ofc if someone would make suggestions, I will not complain. But yes, there will be some new stuff regarding traits and at least elevating the Greeks/Hellenistic factions on par with Romans.

    I haven't seen the Celtic development though... where are you doing it
    It's in the developers' subforum.


    Under patronage of Spirit of Rob; Patron of Century X, Pacco, Cherryfunk, Leif Erikson.

  8. #8
    chris10's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    3,239

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    I've been spending 8+ hours a day every day for a month or so going through this mess,
    you crazy...
    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    buildings were in many cases costing HALF the intended price because of governor traits excessively taking 10, 25, 50% of the cost off buildings.
    Sometimes only 20%-30% of their base price and I may add here that everybody should bare in mind the the merged city already provides a 20% bonus and then adding another 40% or 50% just because of a few governor traits makes buildings nearly "free of charge giveaways" which seriously harms the economy balance and is part of the problem why players would stockpile millions in no time without the money cap...
    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    Fifth, Generals and their traits, as well as the various bonuses they get have been a problem in RS2 from the moment we re-enabled all of the traits.
    Especially to mention in this regard are the command stars and their REAL meaning which a lot of poeple may not know: They give bonuses to morale and fighting ability and the range of these bonuses is in direct relation to the number of stars...but these command stars are seriously cheapend by to much traits giving a general + morale bonus for all tropps on the field hence create a bunch of useless Generals with NO stars at all but +10 troop morale just because of some fancy traits. So I may rather use on of these Generals because their bonuses apply to all troops under their command regardless of how far they are away from them instead a high star commander whose bonuses are somwhat inferior cause of their limited range...that does not sound right.
    Last edited by chris10; February 02, 2011 at 04:08 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    You don't see this kind of dedication often. The RSII team has done a great job, and all of your work is greatly appreciated.

    Thank you for many, many hours of fun gameplay!

  10. #10
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
    Artifex Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Athens, Greece
    Posts
    11,588

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Hi everyone...

    1)dvk and tone i believe we are all extremely thankful for your effort and this great mod...
    2)The updates about trait system and the coward trait problem sound very interesting....
    3)If its ok to mention it here...what about the lineup problem with units and the white units and buildings cards...????
    4)Also are you planning something for economic balance fixes...????
    5)Any update for the 1turn recruit. campaigns????
    Thanks again for everything...
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; February 02, 2011 at 04:03 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Hey,

    I am a modding noob with absolutely no modding experience. I would like to get into modding these games so I can eventually help unlock Empire and Napoleons potential. Is there anything I could do or I should check out to help me get started.
    Australia will conquer the world!!!

  12. #12

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Rome and Empire have different engines, and thus far different to mod. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22 Rome modding help and stuff.
    Last edited by vampiric_canniba; February 02, 2011 at 11:01 PM.

    Boycott boycotts!'


  13. #13

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Thanks for the distinction between governors and generals!


    Two ideas:

    1. Can we have various sized triumphs (I believe either SPQR or RS1 did this), where generals get a triumph relative to the number of baddies killed in a battle, and got the biggest for capturing a city or capital?

    2.Are there going to be larger benefits to being a Senator? Historically, they were responsible for collecting taxes in annexed provinces if they were governing outside of Rome.

    Thanks for all you do

  14. #14

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    Fourth, there will a much great 'divide' between Governors and Generals. Perhaps even 'startling' to some. Characters in settlements meant to be Governors will get almost (if not) all of the traits that are involved in Government and governing. Likewise, Generals will be the fighters, and will get the military traits. Roles can be switched, but it won't be easy or quick
    Could you elaborate on this at all? Presumably, since your unit slots are full, you're not going back to RS1's infantry governors/cavalry generals divide, so will it be a case of generals shedding military traits the longer they stay in cities, and only then beginning to build up civic traits, and vice versa for governors who wander out on campaign? Are you going to set up military and civic traits as anti-traits, so it's impossible to have a jack-of-all-trades?

  15. #15
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,984

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekker View Post
    Could you elaborate on this at all? Presumably, since your unit slots are full, you're not going back to RS1's infantry governors/cavalry generals divide, so will it be a case of generals shedding military traits the longer they stay in cities, and only then beginning to build up civic traits, and vice versa for governors who wander out on campaign? Are you going to set up military and civic traits as anti-traits, so it's impossible to have a jack-of-all-trades?
    First of all, TONS of traits regarding Generals and Governors will depend on the 'Regional Governor' trait, which is given to the Governor of a settlement. This trait will define the character as a governor, and therefore determine which traits he can get.
    There is a 'counter' trait for this, so how it works is like this:

    1. You put the character in a city (or at game start he is in a city)
    2. Each turn gives the character that is the Governor one level of a four level trait called 'governor_counter'. Once he gets the fourth level, he gets the 'City_Has_Governor' trait. The reason for this delay is so that you can move a Governor character elsewhere without him losing the Governor trait in the meantime....or you may move him with an army to attack some rebels and not be able to get him back in the city. This way, there will be a 'delay' in losing the trait. This also means that a General who just pops in for a visit and a few drinks with his buddies won't get this Governor trait right away and then lose his ability to get Military traits. This is important, because he may be there just to do some 'learning' in an academy or higher...which may give him some advancement in his abilities as a faster rate than in the field.

    So I'm not using the RS1.6 concept of Governors and Generals, which was kinda confusing. Rather, I'm use WHERE the character is to determine WHAT he may get.

    As far as a 'jack of all trades'....well, a General or Governor may switch roles. All that will happen is the Governor will be 'frozen' in terms of government traits where he is. Likewise, the General will keep his military traits, but be frozen' there and start (possibly) gaining governing traits.So you could theoretically create a guy who is good at everything. But my goal is to create a list of characters who are 25% (roughly) great at what they do, and 25% suck...the other 50% are just your average 'joes' who are just normal competent people. RTW has a way of creating a few bad guys, and 95% of the rest are good at everything....which is totally unrealistic.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
    R.I.P. My Beloved Father

  16. #16

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Quote Originally Posted by dvk901 View Post
    ...
    So I'm not using the RS1.6 concept of Governors and Generals, which was kinda confusing. Rather, I'm use WHERE the character is to determine WHAT he may get. ...
    Thanks for the info- was a little worried before, but I like the sound of what you're doing.
    You said it'll take 4 turns for a character to gain the "regional governor" trait, and seemed to imply that it will take 4 turns for them to lose it - am I right in thinking that?

    Also, will their ancillaries also be affected by their role? eg. will sending a general to Rome (for three turns only) make him pick up only a chirugeon, or a siege engineer, whilst a governor will get all the slave clerks and overseers?

    If so, this would be great - it gets tiresome micro-managing between characters to prevent all the chirugeons and +management ancillaries going to waste.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    It shouldn't be impossible to have a jack-of-all-trades, but they should be very rare!
    'Ecce, Roma Surrectum!' Beta Tester and Historian
    Under the proud patronage of MarcusTullius

  18. #18
    DarthLazy's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Karachi
    Posts
    4,867

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Id like to know why is it that a RAW general wont be my best general?

    Ever since ive played RTW and any mod, I have only expanded when a 16yo comes. What I do not understand is why that 16yo, who is going to fight 99% of all battles not be my best bet? Since he is 16, by the time he is 20, He would have a L33T bodyguard, can demolish basically anything, not be sent off to combat?
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Real imperialism is shown by Western apologists who are defending Ukraine's brutal occupation of Novorossija.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Sovereignty of Ukraine was recognized by Yeltsin and died with him.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    @dvk:

    Thanks again for all the work you and the others do for us players and the mod… quite amazing I must say. And thanks for the explanations on why some problems or issues are still there or appeared in the first place… it's good to know what causes the trouble some of the players have.

    Regarding your thoughts and ideas:
    A more role play kind of RS2 overhaul with regard to the characters and traits: I think that is an excellent idea and what you have described reminds me very much on the MTW2 mod "Deus Vult" in which the player can decide what to do with his family member once he comes to age. I played the mod and liked it a lot as you get much more connected with your family members. So, if you keep him in a city, he is going to have an education as governor, but will be a bad general; if you put him in castle, he will become a general but will be a bad administrator. The family member has to remain in either place until he is 21 years, otherwise he gets the trait "missed education", which is bad…Now, as in RTW there are only cities (and no castles) so I do not know how to do that but I guess it is possible. I believe that it is good to have the distinction between governor and general. The same person (even in real life) cannot have both qualities. And I remember very well, when I first played RS2, that I asked myself: Hey, where is the governor unit, you could recruit in RS1.6 (though they had not always good governor traits but it helped).

    Generally speaking, I found the traits system in Deus Vult quite satisfying. My king (=faction leader) was diplomatic wise quite active and then got the trait "Political clever" or so, gaining influence and charisma… That is exactly what you were talking about, namely to earn your trait, but not to get it randomly.

    So, guess we are all looking forward to see those changes in a patch but I think nobody wants you to spend 8hs + daily on that…

  20. #20
    dvk901's Avatar Consummatum est
    Patrician

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    20,984

    Default Re: Regarding Traits and the next Patch:

    Quote Originally Posted by Legatus Legionarii View Post
    @dvk:

    Thanks again for all the work you and the others do for us players and the mod… quite amazing I must say. And thanks for the explanations on why some problems or issues are still there or appeared in the first place… it's good to know what causes the trouble some of the players have.

    Regarding your thoughts and ideas:
    A more role play kind of RS2 overhaul with regard to the characters and traits: I think that is an excellent idea and what you have described reminds me very much on the MTW2 mod "Deus Vult" in which the player can decide what to do with his family member once he comes to age. I played the mod and liked it a lot as you get much more connected with your family members. So, if you keep him in a city, he is going to have an education as governor, but will be a bad general; if you put him in castle, he will become a general but will be a bad administrator. The family member has to remain in either place until he is 21 years, otherwise he gets the trait "missed education", which is bad…Now, as in RTW there are only cities (and no castles) so I do not know how to do that but I guess it is possible. I believe that it is good to have the distinction between governor and general. The same person (even in real life) cannot have both qualities. And I remember very well, when I first played RS2, that I asked myself: Hey, where is the governor unit, you could recruit in RS1.6 (though they had not always good governor traits but it helped).

    Generally speaking, I found the traits system in Deus Vult quite satisfying. My king (=faction leader) was diplomatic wise quite active and then got the trait "Political clever" or so, gaining influence and charisma… That is exactly what you were talking about, namely to earn your trait, but not to get it randomly.

    So, guess we are all looking forward to see those changes in a patch but I think nobody wants you to spend 8hs + daily on that…
    Repman wrote much of that...my first mentor. Nice guy. BareBones Wars was my first RTW mod, and I played to pieces.

    Anyway, yes...the Castles......well, the Fortified City is actually a rudimentary attempt to add that dimension to RTW. So a Fortified or Merged City could be used for General traits, and Economic Cities wouldn't give them.

    As for 'earning traits'...let me clarify this. Really, the only traits in RTW one could 'earn' would be the Battle result type traits. Getting a Good Commander, or a Good Besieger, etc. These are earned by Generals who actually fight and win battles.

    Governors, on the other hand, really can't 'earn' anything. They just sit in a city and 'gain' things. You (the Player) in a sense give your Governor traits by building a building, or lowering taxes, or whatever. It's different because the General on the battlefield is a bit 'autonomous'...he's helping you win the battle (or not). The Governor isn't helping you do anything. So Governor traits will be given traits based on what I said above about wanting to create groups of different characters, good, bad or indifferent. The traits in RS2 will essentially 'construct' the character with personality, genetic, and health traits. Depending on these (to some extent) any trait that follows is given on the basis of the person and his personality. This is, I believe, what Calvin envisioned for this. So in a 'way' it's still random, but it's rather based on a 'construct of the person', and what he can or can't have.

    Creator of: "Ecce, Roma Surrectum....Behold, Rome Arises!"
    R.I.P. My Beloved Father

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •