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Thread: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

  1. #121

    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    The mother is deceased. The birth is assumed to be in a hospital, but may actually have occurred in a residence and then mother and baby were transferred to a hospital. Or may never admitted to a hospital. The certificate of live birth only exists for those born in a hospital and not for all those born in Hawaii. In residence births were common at the time. It is also feasible that there was not a certificate for live birth even if born in the hospital.

    This entire discussion is plain silly. Oh and where is the link to the actual law being submitted to the Arizona state legislature? This seems to be a very old issue for Arizona. From April of last year in the WSJ: http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/04/22/...ate-no-ballot/. This keeps passing the state house and seems to end in the state senate not passing the bill. Until this passes both state houses and gets signed by the governor, we have nothing to really discuss. At least give us a copy of the bill. Sigh.
    Its silly but even the explanations are silly too. Apparently no one knows WHERE he was born? I can tell you the state, the location, and the time of my birth and its not exactly a pressing issue to me. If I was born at home, I'd have known that.
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  2. #122
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Its silly but even the explanations are silly too. Apparently no one knows WHERE he was born? I can tell you the state, the location, and the time of my birth and its not exactly a pressing issue to me. If I was born at home, I'd have known that.
    I have a 'birth certificate' from the State of Illinois -- it is a small card with a mirofilm index number. The original micro film file is now missing and the original records from the hospital are long since destroyed. Hey they were microfilmed -- that was supposed to resolve the storage issue wasn't it? I doubt that my situation is unique or rare as hen's teeth.

    As to knowing where I was born, I only have the word of others. My personal memory does not go back that far.

    Heck, my father is not even certain where he was born. Family stories vary depending on who is telling the story. He was either 'born on the boat' or 'conceived on the boat'. And the 'boat' is never quite clear. He has no birth certificate that we can find. He has outlived any people that now might know something of merit to the issue as well. He never even needed it for his passport in the 1930's so even having a current passport today means little regarding a birth cerificate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















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  3. #123

    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Its silly but even the explanations are silly too. Apparently no one knows WHERE he was born? I can tell you the state, the location, and the time of my birth and its not exactly a pressing issue to me. If I was born at home, I'd have known that.
    Damn you've got the best memory I've ever seen. About all I can tell you about my birthplace is 'Alaska'. Forget naming a city, much less the damn hospital and time.

    Guess I'm frakked huh?
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  4. #124

    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    I have a 'birth certificate' from the State of Illinois -- it is a small card with a mirofilm index number. The original micro film file is now missing and the original records from the hospital are long since destroyed. Hey they were microfilmed -- that was supposed to resolve the storage issue wasn't it? I doubt that my situation is unique or rare as hen's teeth.

    As to knowing where I was born, I only have the word of others. My personal memory does not go back that far.

    Heck, my father is not even certain where he was born. Family stories vary depending on who is telling the story. He was either 'born on the boat' or 'conceived on the boat'. And the 'boat' is never quite clear. He has no birth certificate that we can find. He has outlived any people that now might know something of merit to the issue as well. He never even needed it for his passport in the 1930's so even having a current passport today means little regarding a birth cerificate.
    Ah but you can state what happened to yours, and why you can't get it. Instead we get the magical mystery tour here.
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  5. #125
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Obama submitted the 'short form' or whatever it is called that is more or less considered the equal of my Illinois birth certificate microfilm facsimile. It is good enough to apply for a passport without further explanation. It was good enough for existing state rules in the 2010 election. So the solution is for various states to create custom rules to 'fix' the issue based upon a single irritating instance that seems to be within the current rules. I do admit the Obama story line seems to need some holes to be addressed. But these rules changes are not the way to pursue the issue unless you wish at some point to deny many qualified citizens the right to public office. Remember this is not just going to be about Obama and the Presidency (if were, I would oppose this for another obvious rule of law reason). Perhaps showing some faith in the electorate to make a decision is a better solution to the problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  6. #126
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    So on the prevailing view of the jurisprudence (forget all the self-serving statements by the Democratic party and others on the issue) natural born means exactly that - naturally born in the United States as a citizen, whether you have citizen parents or not. The public are entitled to see, in an open democracy, the proof, not the suggestion, that Obama is natural born. And for all candidates for the office of President. It doesnt matter for the other offices, as they can be naturalised citizens (like Senators and so on).
    pity that the majority of citizens, the judiciary in every state tested, his home state government, and the federal government all disagree with your view.

    you've got a lot of work to do.
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  7. #127
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    pity that the majority of citizens, the judiciary in every state tested, his home state government, and the federal government all disagree with your view.

    you've got a lot of work to do.
    The citizens wouldn't have a clue.

    The judiciary in every state huh? You took a survey of all judges in 50 states, the Federal and State Courts and they all said, we agree with you Lord Antaeus? I admire your diligence. Even if that were so (which is unlikely) it doesn't mean they are correct. That's why they get reversed on appeal, sometimes.

    The Federal Government disagrees with my view? Do you mean Congress? Do you mean, the United States Government itself? Maybe it does - I don't know. But even so, they get overruled a fair bit by the Supreme Court too. The Federal Government thought their Gitmo Hearings Mk1 were constitutional, Rumsfeld told us so repeatedly. And yet it was struck down.

    There was another thread where I went throught this chapter and verse, and the upshot was that because someone here (maybe it was you) found the senate resolution saying Obama was a natural born citizen, that meant he was, no ifs buts or maybes. I disagree.

    Here's the audio of when the journalist says that the Governor of Hawaii can find no birth certificate:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    he now says he 'misspoke.' I have a feeling his friend told him this in confidence, but he is a democrat, and now he has this on the news and says 'BACKPEDAL!!! I'm a democrat!' I have friends who are politicians who tell me a lot in confidence, and I'd never think of going on the news and spilling the beans. This guy should have known better. Doesn't mean its not true though.

    Here is the earlier thread where everyone (except me) got very upset:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=324437
    Last edited by Simon Cashmere; February 04, 2011 at 01:57 AM.
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  8. #128
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    Which means what exactly? It's nothing other than speculation. People are going to continue going on believing what they want about people from opposing parties regardless and without facts.
    42% on such a poll means partisanship is deep and that Republicans want to hate Obama.

    I've known smart and educated people, engineers with a master's degree, teachers in universities etc that can be literally blinded by partisanship. They were ready to believe everything against the "enemy" leader. Yes, they were seeing opposing party leader as enemy.

    Well, those people were few.
    They were people we laughed at with my moderate friends. We even played pranks on them telling them obscene things about the party they opposed and see what they could believe. Lies like "Hey, I heard that he actually slept with a 13 year's old boy!" were believed most of the time.

    I would bet you that the majority of the people that believe Obama is a muslim are also birthers.
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  9. #129
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    The citizens wouldn't have a clue.

    The judiciary in every state huh? You took a survey of all judges in 50 states, the Federal and State Courts and they all said, we agree with you Lord Antaeus? I admire your diligence. Even if that were so (which is unlikely) it doesn't mean they are correct. That's why they get reversed on appeal, sometimes.

    The Federal Government disagrees with my view? Do you mean Congress? Do you mean, the United States Government itself? Maybe it does - I don't know. But even so, they get overruled a fair bit by the Supreme Court too. The Federal Government thought their Gitmo Hearings Mk1 were constitutional, Rumsfeld told us so repeatedly. And yet it was struck down.

    There was another thread where I went throught this chapter and verse, and the upshot was that because someone here (maybe it was you) found the senate resolution saying Obama was a natural born citizen, that meant he was, no ifs buts or maybes. I disagree.

    Here's the audio of when the journalist says that the Governor of Hawaii can find no birth certificate:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    he now says he 'misspoke.' I have a feeling his friend told him this in confidence, but he is a democrat, and now he has this on the news and says 'BACKPEDAL!!! I'm a democrat!' I have friends who are politicians who tell me a lot in confidence, and I'd never think of going on the news and spilling the beans. This guy should have known better. Doesn't mean its not true though.

    Here is the earlier thread where everyone (except me) got very upset:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=324437
    If there was ever a case for negative rep, this might be a good example. Whether you agree or disagree on the status of the place of Obama's birth or the documentation thus publicly provided -- the issue of the legislative changes are a bit broader than the question you focus on in your post. I think the post you were responding to was implying that none of the authorities had taken a stand in support of your ideas.

    Perhaps you should return to your post and shorten the rant just a bit. Refocus on the issue of writing the law. A law that I might add, still has not even been posted to this thread yet. A law that may well affect a very large number of potential future candidates to elective office. I personally would strongly dislike any law written to preclude my running for office (not that I could ever win such an election).

    My thouhts on the matter have already been conveniently posted prior to your post.
    If you want to save some time, here are my recent posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    I have a 'birth certificate' from the State of Illinois -- it is a small card with a mirofilm index number. The original micro film file is now missing and the original records from the hospital are long since destroyed. Hey they were microfilmed -- that was supposed to resolve the storage issue wasn't it? I doubt that my situation is unique or rare as hen's teeth.

    As to knowing where I was born, I only have the word of others. My personal memory does not go back that far.

    Heck, my father is not even certain where he was born. Family stories vary depending on who is telling the story. He was either 'born on the boat' or 'conceived on the boat'. And the 'boat' is never quite clear. He has no birth certificate that we can find. He has outlived any people that now might know something of merit to the issue as well. He never even needed it for his passport in the 1930's so even having a current passport today means little regarding a birth cerificate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Obama submitted the 'short form' or whatever it is called that is more or less considered the equal of my Illinois birth certificate microfilm facsimile. It is good enough to apply for a passport without further explanation. It was good enough for existing state rules in the 2010 election. So the solution is for various states to create custom rules to 'fix' the issue based upon a single irritating instance that seems to be within the current rules. I do admit the Obama story line seems to need some holes to be addressed. But these rules changes are not the way to pursue the issue unless you wish at some point to deny many qualified citizens the right to public office. Remember this is not just going to be about Obama and the Presidency (if were, I would oppose this for another obvious rule of law reason). Perhaps showing some faith in the electorate to make a decision is a better solution to the problem.
    Last edited by Viking Prince; February 04, 2011 at 02:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  10. #130
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Please give me negative rep if you like, it will not affect me in the slightest. Linking to a previous thread which debated, in detail, the legal requirements and viewpoints as to what constitutes natural born citizenship seemed to me to be relevant. But if others think not, they need not click on the link. I found it interesting to refer to again, perhaps others will too?

    The law requiring proof of natural born citizenship, is just a law enforcing what is already in the constitution. But only for the Presidential election, which is all the situation requires. That there is an enabling regime setting out what is required to meet the test in the constitution is hardly novel.

    That is, prove you meet the minimum requirements. No big deal. You say the hospital destroyed the records for you? Putting to one side the fact that your parents didn't take home a birth certificate (I guess some parents are bit more careful responsible than others with documents), absent those who cant run because their hopsitals destroyed the records (what about the records lodged with the state?), I think it's fair to everyone else.

    People are again getting confused again between statute based law, and the constitution. The constitution exists outside of the law passed by Congress, and Congress cannot recite itself into power. Regular people show their drivers licenses when they get pulled over. They don't tell the cop he's part of a conspiracy theory against black people for daring to ask whether you have a drivers license.

    And being the President of the United States, is a lot more important than a traffic stop for making sure your documents are in order. But he's Obamamessiah, the rules don't apply to him. As to what 'might' have happened to his birth certificate, anything could have. But the US public should be told exactly what the position is.

    Try to rise to the occassion and be even handed, even if you disagree with my views. Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.
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  11. #131
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Praetorio
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Meanwhile, actual politics.

  12. #132
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.
    Signature worthy!

    Back to the topic:

    I did not and will not bother to give a detailed explanation of my past to satisfy the discussion. Sufficient to say things happen and then you move on. Perhaps it has occurred to some of our members that one reason for an abreviated birth certificate has to do with the imperfection of the record keeping. Regarding the modern records that are digitally recorded and reproduced, what is the guarantee that those reproductions have not been modified? Our entire system depends on trust in the accuracy of records. If you raise the stakes of the validity of the records, you are simply encouraging mischief to destroy the chain of accuracy in the retention of the records when expediant to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  13. #133
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    I read that they are using microwaves on the public so they dont keep asking for his birth certificate. Even though he was born in Afrika. I saw on another website a birth certificate that clearly says "Country of Origin: Afrika". It was there in black and white. THe American government uses fluoride in water to keep the population docile and uses microwaves to subliminally keep patriots down.

    Edit: remember 9/11




  14. #134
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Praetorio
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Have any of the birthers said "nig nog" yet?

  15. #135
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    42% on such a poll means partisanship is deep and that Republicans want to hate Obama.

    I've known smart and educated people, engineers with a master's degree, teachers in universities etc that can be literally blinded by partisanship. They were ready to believe everything against the "enemy" leader. Yes, they were seeing opposing party leader as enemy.

    Well, those people were few.
    They were people we laughed at with my moderate friends. We even played pranks on them telling them obscene things about the party they opposed and see what they could believe. Lies like "Hey, I heard that he actually slept with a 13 year's old boy!" were believed most of the time.

    I would bet you that the majority of the people that believe Obama is a muslim are also birthers.
    I'm not arguing against the stupidity of partisan behavior and we are in serious need of reform of the political structure in this country starting with election and voting system reform. Believe me, I don't have any more fondness for the GOP than the Dems.

    However, polls conducted by candid news agency like CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc or even phone polls are in general cannot be accepted as an accurate representation of such attitudes. Do you not find it odd that they recorded more Dems and Indies than Republicans? I wonder just how well they conducted that sample.

    Imo, opinion polls like this whos only purpose is to run a story only feed the partisan hackery, not help it. Demonizing conservatives is only going to feed their suspicion and distrust of any attitude other than their own and won't convince them to be willing to move a bit further to the center. It's simply unfair of us to jump to the conclusion that they are all paranoid or have no foot on reality. As much as I don't like the Tea Party, it does address some valid concerns on certain issues.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; February 04, 2011 at 08:30 AM.

  16. #136

    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Obama submitted the 'short form' or whatever it is called that is more or less considered the equal of my Illinois birth certificate microfilm facsimile. It is good enough to apply for a passport without further explanation. It was good enough for existing state rules in the 2010 election. So the solution is for various states to create custom rules to 'fix' the issue based upon a single irritating instance that seems to be within the current rules. I do admit the Obama story line seems to need some holes to be addressed. But these rules changes are not the way to pursue the issue unless you wish at some point to deny many qualified citizens the right to public office. Remember this is not just going to be about Obama and the Presidency (if were, I would oppose this for another obvious rule of law reason). Perhaps showing some faith in the electorate to make a decision is a better solution to the problem.
    Still don't you think under the circumstances the best thing to do would either be the explanation why there is no birth certificate or show it? I am not disputing his legitimacy, I am saying this is awfully odd. I would not be surprised if there was some sort of information on his BC he did not want out, reminds me of Kerry's war record and why he hid it, to hide his grades.
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  17. #137

    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Still don't you think under the circumstances the best thing to do would either be the explanation why there is no birth certificate or show it? I am not disputing his legitimacy, I am saying this is awfully odd. I would not be surprised if there was some sort of information on his BC he did not want out, reminds me of Kerry's war record and why he hid it, to hide his grades.
    Perhaps these pedants could explain why they want to exclude a perfectly serviceable President and likely candidate from future office, whilst promoting that dimwit Palin, who clearly is not fit run a bath, let alone an entire country.
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  18. #138
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    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Perhaps these pedants could explain why they want to exclude a perfectly serviceable President and likely candidate from future office, whilst promoting that dimwit Palin, who clearly is not fit run a bath, let alone an entire country.
    The US Constitution is now 'pedantry' is it?

    No one's above the law, not even Obamamessiah.
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  19. #139

    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    oops
    Last edited by mongrel; February 04, 2011 at 10:15 AM.
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  20. #140

    Default Re: Birthers try to ban Obama from the ballot in 2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    The US Constitution is now 'pedantry' is it?

    No one's above the law, not even Obamamessiah.
    If Obama's not eligible to run for office why is POTUS? He clearly was. Moreover he was elected by the will of the US people, not these pedants. If they want a Republican president, they should pick a candidate who is electable, like any other opposition in a democracy.
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