Lithuania strategy (6.4, vh/vh)

[rummtata]

I've been trying to play Lithuania on vh/vh - so far without much success. I just can't seem to repel the Teutonic Order, Poland and Novgorod and mount an offensive to expand my territory at the same time. I managed to almost wipe out the TO in the first few turns, capturing Riga and annihilating their armies in the field. But before I could regroup and march on their capital, Poland and Novgorod invaded. Outnumbered five to one, even repelling every attack with minimal casualties isn't enough to free enough forces to take any more cities for myself. Now it's only a matter of time before they take me out completely

There must be a way to solve this. Perhaps if I look after my faction's reputation next time, I won't be harassed as much in spite of the pagan religion, but releasing prisoners will make things even more difficult...

What are your thoughts on the matter, follow worshippers of Dievas, Perkunas and Giltine?

[Ichon]

I assume you are playing late campaign? Sometimes it is better not to take on Teutons in the field- you can win but it takes too many casualties when you also have to face Poland and Novgorod. If you can get peace with either of those... usually Novgorod is easier than Poland because of Kiev and Cumans on their borders.

You might try sneaking a general to a ship on the coast and sailing him around to Riga and buying mercenaries to siege when the Teutons leave it undefended- that worked for me once. Other times I lost most of my cities in Lithuania but attacked Visby, then Turku- and finally Scandinavia getting a secure base to return. If you are also playing BGR then its tougher due to the religious requirements to recruit. My first BGR late campaign with Lithuania is the closest I've come to losing a campaign other than late era Cumans. My lands were flooded with other religion priests taking down my religious support lower than the BGR requirement to recruit.

Otherwise its all about best use of your resources. Lithuanian horse archers have trouble vs high armor Teutons but can still be effective against most of what Poland and Novgorod have aside from Home Guard and a couple other units. So put them where they are best used and put your other AP and lots of spears against Teutons with a few heavy cavalry. Also if you wait for Teutons to siege your Latvian Crossbowmen on walls firing down inside after Teutons take gate can do alot of damage. Had a battle where they had almost 200 kills.

I've played Lithuanians more than any factions except Genoa. About 5 campaigns and how tough it is really varies but more often its hard. I did have one campaign where Novgorod agreed peace and stayed at peace and I earned about 9 free units from missions in the first 20 turns completely changing the campaign. The other campaigns it wasn't so easy.

[rummtata]

I suppose you need the perfect start with your chosen strategy. I will try to

1) Keep the peace with Novgorod

2) Wipe out the Teutonic Order in the first few turns (perhaps indeed by utilizing mercs)

3) If 1+2 succeed, concentrate on Poland, if not:

4) Retreat towards Scandinavia

I was surprised, btw, to see that the Teutonic Order and Novgorod declared war on each other after a few turns even though none of their provinces were close-by. If retreating to the north remains the only option, maybe those two will keep each other busy? I'll be back to report =)

[Mihajlo]

Yeah, from my own game experience with Lith. and TO, fast blitz towards one of those two is kinda must, to survive later, especially with gracul ai. Use mercs to have edge on battlefield.

[Ichon]

It can be easier to focus on Novgorod first rather than TO unless you get lucky since TO has strong armies right from the start while it takes Novgorod a little bit to build up. Also heading north secures your flanks while going to TO opens up to attacks from Poland and Scandinavia- even HRE might sent an army that far east.

[Zanze]

You couldn't take the Teutons on the field? My attempt at Lith late game ended with me decimating them on the fields and forcing them to hide in their cities. Thanks to their heavy infantry...I could not touch the cities. Dievas forgive the few soldiers that did leave their walls

HA ftw


Ended up playing that one until Poland and Novgorod took Mengsk/Hrodna almost in unison. The moment I retook Mengsk, TO came back for Vilnius. Sore losers.

[Caesar Clivus]

It can be easier to focus on Novgorod first rather than TO unless you get lucky since TO has strong armies right from the start while it takes Novgorod a little bit to build up. Also heading north secures your flanks while going to TO opens up to attacks from Poland and Scandinavia- even HRE might sent an army that far east.

Also you dont risk papal wrath by attacking Novgorod

[Tuatha Mordred]

Also you dont risk papal wrath by attacking Novgorod

Relations with Catholic factions suffer from attacks on Orthodox factions too?

[Caesar Clivus]

Relations with Catholic factions suffer from attacks on Orthodox factions too?

I dont think so. Not sure what happens if they're allied with orthodox factions though Either way you wont displease the pope

[Tuatha Mordred]

I dont think so. Not sure what happens if they're allied with orthodox factions though Either way you wont displease the pope

Playing as Lithuania, Early Era, SS6.4 with Meneth's Sub-Mod Compilation 6.0, Very Hard campaign. I held the HRE at the bridge west of Thorn, had alliances with Poland and Hungary to the south-west and south and also with the Cumans on the far side of the Russian factions Kiev and Novgorod. I've beaten back the Russian onslaught (they were allied and attacked me in tandem), choosing to shut down the Novgorodian threat all the way to Muscovy. With a full stack led by a high-star high-chiv general bearing down on their last city, I got them to accept vassalage.

With vassalage also comes automatic cessation of hostilities with their allies, Kievan Rus, which probably heaved a hugh sigh of relief as they were also beaten back to Yerenslav (sp?) as their last city. I had planned to vassalize them too since I could use not having borders with the Cumans to ensure the longevity of our friendship. But you cannot propose vassalage without being at war.

So I declared war on the Kievan Rus for the sole purpose of getting them to accept vassalage - only to have the Novgorodians, their allies, break alliance and vassalage with me. That's cool, expected even. What's odd is that I had a relations drop with Papal States, my allies, drop from Very Good to Very Poor.

So what gives? How come the Pope got mad that I declared war on a neutral Orthodox faction? My reputations have been immaculate for a long time thanks to consistently releasing prisoners, so I've been a good little Pagan...

[Caesar Clivus]

Maybe the papal states had good relations with Novgorod

[Jiub]

I take on the TO in open field in my regions, and mostly win without more than 10% to 20%. 2/3 fights later and the TO is usually left with but a small army. It is important that you take out the TO as soon as possible. Having 5 regions allows you to maintain a decent army.

Also an important thing to know is never let your enemies besiege you. It stops you from recruiting, building and retraining. Basically every siege prevents you from advancing. Always fight them before they get a siege or relieve the siege at once, but on your own lands if you care about your reputation.

[Ichon]

Beating TO in the early campaign is relatively easy. Beating them 5 turns into late campaign is more difficult as Lithuania does not have access to its best units at that point.

I play without letting AI siege or at least only if they move and attack on their turn and I have no army nearby because sieges take a long time to fight and almost always end with Heroic victory as the AI is simply incapable of coordinating well and pathfinding bugs and constant burning oil and tower fire wither their army without the player having to do anything. Field battles are little bit more fair for the AI unless player has masses of cavalry in which case field battles are even easier to win than sieges.

[rummtata]

I decided to give the early campaign a shot before I'd try 1300 again. At first I found it hardly challenging to conquer the sorrounding rebel provinces and fend off a weak Novgorod, but things got pretty heated up the more I progressed: Pillaging towns and killing each and every prisoner soon earned me a "despicable" reputation; EVERYBODY HATES ME (well, everyone besides my pagan allies, the Cumans).

I sent two of my generals campaigning, one for Novgorod and the other one for Poland; it was tough scraping together enough troops, had to rely on mercs heavily. When my invasion forces were far away, of course, the Kievans crossed my border and laid siege to Polotsk and Mensk. Vastly outnumbered, I repelled them at Mensk but lost Polotsk (they paid with 70% of their army, though).

Now I had two armies out there, Novgorod and Poland crippled but each of them two provinces left and my core provinces under attack by the Kievans with hardly any troops in my settlements. I couldn't wait, so after laying waste Novgorod City, my Merciless Conquerer turned around, just in time to keep the Kievans in check. I then captured their provinces one after another while trying to finish off Poland in the west.

Before I could do that, however, Hungary and the HRE joined the fray and Denmark landed on my coast near Palanga. My offensive in the west came to a halt, but my eastern general made it's way through Kievan Rus territory, receiving sparse reinforcements from my core provinces and hiring any avaible mercs. Now I'm defending Krakow and only have to take Halychyna before my two armies can join. Since my Cuman allies took care of the Novgorodian remnants and the Kievans are all but destroyed, I can now concentrate on my NW-W-SW front (Denmark, HRE, Hungary).

Man, this is fun, I missed this kind of action in most of my other campaigns =)

P.S: I hate heretics

[Ichon]

Only campaigns I've had match frenetic pace of Lithuania are Turks, Kiev, Crusader States and Genoa when excommunicated on turn 10. Enemies coming from all directions... other campaigns might have alot of battles(HRE) but its relatively easy to secure one front and only worry about a couple directions so even with less resources you can manage easier though sometimes you can still be overwhelmed at 1 point(Portugal vs early Jihad, Cumans vs Mongols).

[rummtata]

BTW, I fight the vast majority of my battles combining missile units/hit & run with my generals high dread: 1) soften up, 2) rout, 3) run down with cavalry. Does anyone employ melee tactics with Lithuania successfully?

[Ichon]

Yes you can be successful with melee but its more difficult. The Baltic spearmen early on are nearly as good as Pavise militia though they cost more. Later Lithuania actually gets quite decent melee units that are good balance of stats, cost, and availability. Of course in the early part of a campaign missile tactics are much more efficient as well as allowing you to use same army on many different parts of the map- the cavalry movement bonus is huge for Lithuania. Trying to march an infantry army those distances would cost much more due to having many wasted turns of soldiers marching and not fighting.

Usually I do both on my Lithuanian campaigns... have 1 army of infantry and 2-3 armies of cavalry. The infantry usually stay in the west where borders are narrower and more bridges while also Poland, Scandinavians, and HRE have fewer cavalry than those factions in the east so infantry is easier to use against them. Even putting just 1 or 2 light cavalry(Lithuanian or Prussians, or Merchant) with an infantry army is enough.

[PaleBlueDot]

Here is my strategy for Lithuania on VH/VH that you definitely should try:

First build your army quickly. The economy can come later. Just mass units until you start going into massive debt. Leave a few peasant stacks to defend your cities in case of attack, and march for Jerusalem. It sounds silly to do this so early, around 5th turn, but it will really impress the pope, which is very important since you are pagan. Make sure to attack the HRE, hungarians and Romans on your way down, kill a few units then carry on. They probably wont attack you, instead they will simply sit around and sooner or later beg you for a ceasefire, which you will only accept for a lot of cash.
If the russians or polish attack you, make sure to add some peasant archers to your defense. In case of siege, they should do the trick. Once you have taken Jerusalem, you have practically won the game. As for the Teutonic order, don't worry about them, they are very peaceful and will probably ask you for an alliance as soon as your troops have left for Jerusalem.

Don't even thank me, just pass the favor on some day

[Mihajlo]

Here is my strategy for Lithuania on VH/VH that you definitely should try:

First build your army quickly. The economy can come later. Just mass units until you start going into massive debt. Leave a few peasant stacks to defend your cities in case of attack, and march for Jerusalem. It sounds silly to do this so early, around 5th turn, but it will really impress the pope, which is very important since you are pagan. Make sure to attack the HRE, hungarians and Romans on your way down, kill a few units then carry on. They probably wont attack you, instead they will simply sit around and sooner or later beg you for a ceasefire, which you will only accept for a lot of cash.
If the russians or polish attack you, make sure to add some peasant archers to your defense. In case of siege, they should do the trick. Once you have taken Jerusalem, you have practically won the game. As for the Teutonic order, don't worry about them, they are very peaceful and will probably ask you for an alliance as soon as your troops have left for Jerusalem.

Don't even thank me, just pass the favor on some day

[rummtata]

I'm not sure whether this suggestion is more ridicilous or hilarious... ;-) they should make a movie out of it!