Blurring the lines

[Denny Crane!]

We see a lot of political terminology thrown around on the TWC and in politics in general. When we label someones political ideals we do so to divide them into a group: A believing in 1 and B believing in 2. In each country the labels given represent different ideals but we can all agree there is a left, right and center. My question is how relevant these are to the modern world?

In Britain politics is becoming very murky, and the lines are blurring. GrimSta expressed the opinion that Labour (socialist left wing) are becoming more right wing than the Tories (right wing conservative) and since a new Tory party leader has come to power he has blurred the lines again with some recent policy changes moving the policies of the part towards the center. The other main party is a broad mix, courtesy of TBP:

the lib dems...
hmmm... i'm not much a lib dem supporter really... i like some of their policies, but voting lib dem means voting higher taxes, higher welfare state, less military spending, less intelligence spending, less national security spending etc...
they are in theory a centrist party, combining labour left wing welfare plans with right wing economy plans - but differ from the tories on the actual distribution of economic power. they are slightly left of centre, and with labour being more right wing than the tories these days, they are the most left of britains main parties.
they are also so the least othadox. tory is very much the opposite of labour at the moment, its oneof the other until cameron shakes things up. Lib dem has its own direction thats neither one or the other.

they're very popular with students, the majority of who vote for this party, because lib dems are the environment loving left wing socialist style party, with about being the militant unionist protectionist economist of old labour.
a lot of other people are more wary of their economic plans, and so they're not much of an effective national party really... most swing voters who want to vote labour out will vote conservative not lib dem

The idea that someone can choose their sides so carefully is I think old fashioned. A solid political party has to embrace a broad spectrum of ideas rather than embracing one political ideology. Of course the choice that Charles Kennedy so determinedly refused to make, tacking between the wings of his party for six long years could be the reason why he never acheived the election win but he did make gains unheard of for many years.

Of course politics in Britain has always differed from America here people vote, in my opinion, based on performance and key issues like europe rather than ideology. The ground to the center right is crowded but in a consumer led society is that not natural? The next question is what is more important following the ideology of your party or voting based purely on performance? I have to admit I vote based on performance, Blair taking us to war and lying is a very bad mark against his name but a major influence in my voting him out is tax rises and the tax and spend policy.

If my concept of what influences the USA is wrong please correct me, my impression mainly from the forum is that it is heavily divisive between republican and democrat. Do you vote for your governors by performance and tax promises or political party? Are your presidential candidates based on party, cult of personality, or performance? And I hope I didn't misquote Grimsta I couldn't find the original topic.

Peter

[Rush Limbaugh]

Do you vote for your governors by performance and tax promises or political party?

o you mean politicians or actual govenors of individual states? Anyone who votes by party is a moron. You vote for the candidate you think will best represent your views.

Are your presidential candidates based on party, cult of personality, or performance?

Their based on many things. You cant put a finger on it.

[Last Roman]

tax promises or political party?

these two

Are your presidential candidates based on party, cult of personality, or performance?

I would have to say all three

Now, this is not me, but the average American voter, who is horribly uninformed (on both sides)

[Rush Limbaugh]

Now, this is not me, but the average American voter, who is horribly uninformed (on both sides)

Not just both sides but most. Most people either simply vote for their party or whoever appeals to them for any number of reasons having nothing to do with politics. I have to agree the vast majoirity are horribly uninformed. I agree with Mark Levin. We shouldnt encourage the unwashed masses to vote on something they know little or nothing about. He calls it his stifle the vote program. Needless to say its aimed exclusively at liberals.

[Last Roman]

I like the ARP's (american reform party, an offshoot of the reform pary) idea of requiring the distribution of voting pamphlets (info on the canidates, parties, platforms etc) this doesn't guarantee that people will read it, but it would help immensely.

[Denny Crane!]

I have often stated that egaliteriansim is pure BS. Not everyone is equal, the majority of the people drawn to these political conversations are the minority. Most of my friends would be bored to tears with what I talk about on here and most haven't a clue about politics or current events. I would say being optomistic about society roughly half probably less of the current voting population should actually be allowed to vote. "The great unwashed" should not be allowed to vote. Wow I probably sound really extreme there but until I come up with a way to filter people I'll leave my plans for government (evil snicker) another day perhaps.

But oy! Stop hijacking the thread, give me your opinions on political representation. I know you rush are a conservative do you feel the label is representative and encompasses all your beliefs?

Peter

[Rush Limbaugh]

"The great unwashed" should not be allowed to vote. Wow I probably sound really extreme there but until I come up with a way to filter people I'll leave my plans for government (evil snicker) another day perhaps.

So we agree

I know you rush are a conservative do you feel the label is representative and encompasses all your beliefs?

For the most part. I also consider myself a constitutionalist and a libertarian. I can justify most of my positions including the legalization of drugs as conservative ones.

[Denny Crane!]

So we agree



For the most part. I also consider myself a constitutionalist and a libertarian. I can justify most of my positions including the legalization of drugs as conservative ones.

I'm pretty much a beginner in politics but do conservatism and libertarian not cancel each other out? Liberalism in America is defined by a few things one of wich I thought was antipathy to capatilism which surely conservatism favours (it does over here anyway).

Peter

[Last Roman]

But oy! Stop hijacking the thread, give me your opinions on political representation.

I think the typical representation of a liberal in America is wrong. Most arent hippies (in fact I hate hippies, lazy bastards)

I'm pretty much a beginner in politics but do conservatism and libertarian not cancel each other out? Liberalism in America is defined by a few things one of wich I thought was antipathy to capatilism which surely conservatism favours (it does over here anyway).

Peter

liberalism in America is very different from that in Europe. For example a liberal in Europe would favor less government control (correct me if im wrong) while a liberal here (the US) favors regulation of various things (corporations for example)

This message has been merged, please use the edit button whenever you wont to add something-Valus

[Denny Crane!]

What I meant is does modern day politics actually fall under these categories? Can a government rule effectivly if it makes policies while confined to these brackets, do those labels even apply to the governments to which they were given?

I know in my country they don't, and with good reason I think a broad political strategy can incorporate conservative laissez faire ideas to business with liberal attitudes to Drugs and prostitution. Thats just two examples of the many things which could be combined from each ideal to make a good government. Did the labels ever actually fit the political parties? In britain they did when government was made up of high profile individuals like disraeli but now I'm not so sure.

[Rush Limbaugh]

I'm pretty much a beginner in politics but do conservatism and libertarian not cancel each other out?

Not at all. Most libertarians I know consider themselves conservatives.

Here check out their positions on some topics and see if you think their liberal or conservative. I bet you get confused.

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Libertarians believe that you have the right to live your life as you wish, without the government interfering -- as long as you don’t violate the rights of others. Politically, this means Libertarians favor rolling back the size and cost of government, and eliminating laws that stifle the economy and control people’s personal choices.



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Libertarians are neither. Unlike liberals or conservatives, Libertarians advocate a high degree of both personal and economic liberty. For example, Libertarians agree with conservatives about freedom in economic matters, so we're in favor of lowering taxes, slashing bureaucratic regulation of business, and charitable -- rather than government -- welfare. But Libertarians also agree with liberals on personal tolerance, so we're in favor of people’s right to choose their own personal habits and lifestyles.



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A truly independent party. Its more in line with how the founding fathers saw the US Im sure.

[Aristophanes]

I really like the Libertarians' leader, Michael Badnarik, he strikes me as an extremely intelligent man. He performed very well during the 3rd party debates: he's way more coherent than either Bush or Kerry.