[EB AAR] Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Sparte

[Cassibellane]

Epicydes watches as Demostheneses gently places the olive branch upon the floor. Could the Athenian have a point? No one in the hall makes a motion, not even a sound. Once again, indecision has plagued the halls of Sparta concerning the relations of the cities. Epicydes rises and Demosthenes takes his seat, "Spartans! Though it may not be very becoming of us to admit so, but the Athenian is right! Our two cities have acted independently of one another for too long! How are we to accomplish spectacular feats of glory, when our time is dedicated to individually accomplish nothing? How long has it been since the glorious day of the forming of our alliance? How many years? How many Spartans, Athenians, Greeks have perished on the plains? What have we to show for it? What have we gained to justify such bloodshed across the peninsula? If are two cities conversed, even sporadicly, with one another, imagine what we could accomplish!"

Epicydes slowly approaches the olive branch on the floor, "My dear Athenian brother! I shall stand beside you in our greatest hour of need! Who is with me?!"

Demosthenes watched as Epicydes reached for the olive branch. His words had allowed him to breath again, and he noted him as a man who might share his vision of a greater Hellenic world built upon the strength of these two great cities. His own words within the Athenian council had regained their strength and meaning, where briefly he had thought they might tumble accusingly upon the tiles of that great chamber empty and desultory - the ramblings of an out of touch dreamer.

He arose again.

"Thank you Epicydes, I can continue to speak within Athens of a world I believe in. A world where sons of Athens and sons of Sparte stand shoulder to shoulder, in equality. The mistrust within our two councils has lead to that equality being in grief. There are those within Athens who have sought some kind of solace from Chremonides' recent victory in relieving and taking Demetrias. It is, though, a victory worthy of that Alexandrian pretender Pyrrhos. Too many of our men, young men of Sparte and young men of Athens, were 'spent' for that 'victory' for me to gain any such consolation. Areus and Chremonides had their eye on the glory of their own commands, or rather the glory of their cities, rather than on the alliance we should aspire to. I hold neither Areus nor Chremonides responsible for these needless gambles. Had the language of our councils been less nationalistic, had we had our eyes upon the bigger picture, then we could have avoided these losses. Are there more here who can share Epicydes' vision of what our unity can bring. I believed so before I came here, we are all Greeks after all, and I see evidence to support that now."

He walked back to his seat, nodding his appreciation to Epicydes as he did so.

[Cassibellane]

A slave delivers a scroll, which is taken to Demosthenes. Demosthenes reads the scroll thoughtfully then rises before the Spartan Council once more.

"Fellow Greeks, I have received a report that I requested. It is cursory in its information, and it regards the military and financial capabilities of the Koinon. I believe that, given the price that was paid for its taking, it is imperative that we hold Demetrias; both to honour the memory of those seven hundred brave Greek men who gave their lives to gain it, and to weaken the position of the Makedonians.

I, an Athenian, PROPOSE to this Spartan Council that we allow Chremonides to engage mercenary troops to relieve Demetrias and strengthen the garrison there. If it is still possible. I ask this of the Spartan Council because the finances of our alliance are controlled from this place. The only way we can afford any mercenaries is if we cancel the building projects in Sparta, Athens and Rhodes. Even then, as my information is cursory, I do not know what strength we may add to our army."

[Ranger Blue]

I Agree with both of Mainolfi's proposals, to take Krete and to maintain contact the with Athenian council.
To this end, I offer my support for Cassibellane, who has proven honourable, with the best intentions for Sparte and the Koinon as a whole at heart.

I Agree with 1,2,3,5 of Savagefeats proposals.
I partially agree with 6, but urge that we maintain a combined arms approach. Sparte may be famous for it's hoplitai, but without support, even the mightiest may fall.
4 is, I believe, impossible.

I Agree with both of Scutarilegion's proposals, and add that perhaps those men recruited from Korinthos form the skirmisher/cavalry portion of our army.

In addition to these, I Propose that the heavy skirmishers be replaced with lighter troops. We do not currently need the armour and it costs more upkeep.

I also ask Cassibellane to confirm Populous' statement about the Athenai council 'claiming' Lesbos, and ask what right they have to do so? I do not wish to cause offence, but we could 'claim' any city we desire, unless you have a substantial reason for doing so.

[Cassibellane]

I Agree with both of Mainolfi's proposals, to take Krete and to maintain contact the with Athenian council.
To this end, I offer my support for Cassibellane, who has proven honourable, with the best intentions for Sparte and the Koinon as a whole at heart.

I Agree with 1,2,3,5 of Savagefeats proposals.
I partially agree with 6, but urge that we maintain a combined arms approach. Sparte may be famous for it's hoplitai, but without support, even the mightiest may fall.
4 is, I believe, impossible.

I Agree with both of Scutarilegion's proposals, and add that perhaps those men recruited from Korinthos form the skirmisher/cavalry portion of our army.

In addition to these, I Propose that the heavy skirmishers be replaced with lighter troops. We do not currently need the armour and it costs more upkeep.

I also ask Cassibellane to confirm Populous' statement about the Athenai council 'claiming' Lesbos, and ask what right they have to do so? I do not wish to cause offence, but we could 'claim' any city we desire, unless you have a substantial reason for doing so.

To your last point; there have been, unfortunately and to the shame of Athens, too many such intemperate 'proposals' made within our council. I believe that our party has gained a footing whereby we can reduce these foolish impositions such that they are represented as what they are; the mad ramblings of xenophobes. I cannot control the minds of all Athenians, and I would rather be aware of such mischief then have it silenced utterly. In short, our Spartan guest reports what he witnessed, but not precisely. Such a proposition may well have been made, but such a proposition does not reflect the view of the council as a whole.

Has there not been a proposition for Sparta to "annex" Demetrias within this council? I thank you all for your graciousness, but now must return to Athens.

[MIDN Mainolfi]

OLD PROPOSALS:
Populus Romanus's 12 Points of War:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(1)I PROPOSE that Hoplitai be trained
(2)I PROPOSE that mercenary Hoplitai be hired
(3)I PROPOSE that Thermon be captured
(4)I PROPOSE that Thermon be occupied
(5)I PROPOSE that Thermon be given a type II government
(6)I PROPOSE a declaration of war on Epeiros (not immediately, but soon, before the Athenai can do it)
(7)I PROPOSE that Ambrakaia be captured
(8)I PROPOSE that Ambrakaia be expelled
(9)I PROPOSE that Ambrakaia be given a level III government
(10)I PROPOSE that we ally with the Romanoi and use them to fight a war by proxy
(11)I PPOPOSE that Sparte annex Demetrias
(12)I PROPOSE that a type I government be constructed in Demetrias

Status:
(1): 3 Agree
(2): 5 Disagree
(3) - (5): 2 Agree 1 Disagree
(6) - (9): 3 Disagree
(10) - (12): 3 Agree

Ranger Blue's Army Proposals:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(1)I Propose that any remaining Spartans be removed from the Alliance army to be retrained,
(2)And I Propose that more hoplitai are raised in Sparte.
(3)I Propose that using this Spartan army, we take Mytilene. Not only will this give us another city, but I believe it is likely to be lightly defender, and more importantly, when the time comes will give us a good base from which to launch attack into Asia Minor.

Status:
(1): 1 Agree
(2): 1 Disagree
(3): 1 Agree

MIDNMainolfi's Proposal of Krete Invasion:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Propose: We take the island of Krete under the Spartan banner! It is in the middle of our soon-to-be trades routes in Africa, as well as away from the soon-to-be very hectic Greek Peninsula.

Status: 2 Agree

SavageFeats Points of Diplomacy and Recruitment, Misc:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(1)I PROPOSE that the Attike/Thermopylae fort be abandoned as we have no more use for it and it needs troops garrisoned it for stay there and as seen before they can just walk arround it.

(2) PROPOSE that Molina show us the Faction Diplomacy for factions such as Epirus, Macedon and Rome

(3)I PROPOSE that we get a diplomat over to Asia Minor and get trade rights with some Successor Kingdoms (Seleucid's, Ptolemy's , Armenia and Pontos (have we cease fired with them yet? if not cease fire and trade rights)

(4)I PROPOSE that you grow Sparta's Military and force Athens to pay the upkeep. I see too many men here in this assembly, that could be fighting.

(5) I PROPOSE that the Alliance Army be upgraded with more Spartan Military units. If Macedon is destroyed then you will be richer and could afford more fighting men and take on Epirus and if you are to be so daring the might that is Rome and Carthage and gain greatness.

(6)I must the PROPOSE that all Spartan Cav and ranged units be returned to Sparta and disbanded and replaced with more, conventual spartan units e.g. melee type units with a hoplon and shield with the signature Lambda (pronounced Lamda). also perhaps we could recuit some cheap units in major city's and send them over to Sparta and disband them there

Status:
(1): 2 Agree
(2): 2 Agree
(3): 2 Agree
(4): Pending
(5): 2 Agree
(6): 1 Agree

Scutarilegion's Two Cents:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(1)I propose that Molina shows us the current population's of each of the koinon's cities.
(2)I propose that we recruit auxilia from the city of Korinthas, to increase our army's size,as they have lot of unused men.

Status:
(1) 2 Agree
(2) 2 Agree

NEW PROPOSALS:

MIDN Mainolfi's proposal of friendly domestic relations:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Proposal: We should somehow establish a direct line of communication with at least one of the Athenian council. True, in the past, we have had visitors to this council, however, it was less than friendly, as well as having an unfortunate execution in the Athenian council. If we could have regular communications between our peoples, or perhaps even just special dates assigned to meetings between the two councils, we could achieve great goals?

Status: 3 Agree

Ranger Blue's Heavy Skirmisher Proposal:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I Propose that the heavy skirmishers be replaced with lighter troops. We do not currently need the armour and it costs more upkeep.

Status: 1 Agree 1 Disagree

Athenian Proposals:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cassibellane:
I, an Athenian, PROPOSE to this Spartan Council that we allow Chremonides to engage mercenary troops to relieve Demetrias and strengthen the garrison there. If it is still possible. I ask this of the Spartan Council because the finances of our alliance are controlled from this place. The only way we can afford any mercenaries is if we cancel the building projects in Sparta, Athens and Rhodes. Even then, as my information is cursory, I do not know what strength we may add to our army."

Status: 1 Athenian Disagree 1 Spartan Disagree

Jirisys's Proposals:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(1)I PROPOSE we install a Type III government, so that it remains neutral, as neither of our city armies captured it.
(2)I PROPOSE we ask the whole alliance for help, so Demetrias may not fall to the enemy. And let the men join their armies when no longer needed if the y so wish
(3)I PROPOSE we ask the Polemarchos if he is able to assist in the defense

Status:
(1): 3 Spartan Agree
(2): 2 Spartan Agree
(3): 2 Spartan Agree

ArtoriusRex's Military Proposals:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Proposal 1: Replace all but the most experienced of the skirmisher units in the Alliance Army with Hoplati from Sparta.

Proposal 2: Send the Hoplati unit from Chalkis to retrain in Sparta and to get a weapons and armour update in Athens.

Porposal 3: Retrain all of the most valuable Alliance Army units. Any we don't need should be divided between Sparta and Chalkis to be decided what to do with on a later date. I would suggest disbandment.

Proposal 4: When we capture Pellas we should enslave it.

Status:
(1): 2 Agree
(2): 2 Agree
(3): 2 Agree
(4): 1 Agree 2Disagree

Beckitz Anti-Slavery Proposal:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I further propose that we, from this day forward, never enslave a free city so long as this Alliance stands."

Status: 1 Disagree

Savagefeat's Extermination Proposal:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I PROPOSE should we take Pella we should exterminate the population. and this should send a message out to all who would with to with the greeks, it would also give us extra cash

Status: Pending

[SavageFeat]

Scutarilegion's Two Cents:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(1)I propose that Molina shows us the current population's of each of the koinon's cities.
(2)I propose that we recruit auxilia from the city of Korinthas, to increase our army's size,as they have lot of unused men.

I AGREE with these two proposals

NEW PROPOSALS:

MIDN Mainolfi's proposal of friendly domestic relations:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Proposal: We should somehow establish a direct line of communication with at least one of the Athenian council. True, in the past, we have had visitors to this council, however, it was less than friendly, as well as having an unfortunate execution in the Athenian council. If we could have regular communications between our peoples, or perhaps even just special dates assigned to meetings between the two councils, we could achieve great goals?

I AGREE with this proposal

Ranger Blue's Heavy Skirmisher Proposal:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I Propose that the heavy skirmishers be replaced with lighter troops. We do not currently need the armour and it costs more upkeep.

I AGREE with this proposal

Athenian Proposals:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cassibellane:
I, an Athenian, PROPOSE to this Spartan Council that we allow Chremonides to engage mercenary troops to relieve Demetrias and strengthen the garrison there. If it is still possible. I ask this of the Spartan Council because the finances of our alliance are controlled from this place. The only way we can afford any mercenaries is if we cancel the building projects in Sparta, Athens and Rhodes. Even then, as my information is cursory, I do not know what strength we may add to our army."

I defiantly DISAGREE with this proposal we could just train troops out of Sparta when needed instead of buying mercenary's which are expensive

Jirisys's Proposals:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(1)I PROPOSE we install a Type III government, so that it remains neutral, as neither of our city armies captured it.
(2)I PROPOSE we ask the whole alliance for help, so Demetrias may not fall to the enemy. And let the men join their armies when no longer needed if the y so wish
(3)I PROPOSE we ask the Polemarchos if he is able to assist in the defense

Sure I AGREE with these proposals


ArtoriusRex's Military Proposals:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Proposal 1: Replace all but the most experienced of the skirmisher units in the Alliance Army with Hoplati from Sparta.

Proposal 2: Send the Hoplati unit from Chalkis to retrain in Sparta and to get a weapons and armour update in Athens.

Porposal 3: Retrain all of the most valuable Alliance Army units. Any we don't need should be divided between Sparta and Chalkis to be decided what to do with on a later date. I would suggest disbandment.

Proposal 4: When we capture Pellas we should enslave it.

I AGREE with all of these proposals except the last one. You must remember what the Macedonians have done for us. They have killed and murdered many great Greeks, They Slaughtered Thebes for their rebellion and raised it to the ground. we should return the favor. I PROPOSE should we take Pella we should exterminate the population. and this should send a message out to all who would want to with the greeks, it would also give us extra cash

[Molina]

This session is now over. Stay tuned for an update in a few hours.

[jirisys]

Leumenes arrived, very hot, yet the air was not letting the sweat drip our of his forehead, his horse was tired, as was he. Yet he entered into the assembly as the representative of the Party of the free and united men of Hellas. Yet, dismayed at the sight of the Sparte Nationalist Party, one that was opposed to his ideals and to seek spartan supremacy.

"What is this? You come to our assembly and denigrate the Arche Athenaia party while creating the same but for Sparte? It ashames me, we need this alliance to work. We cannot allow for sparta to try to cut us from this, we must all work together."

A slave handed him the whole transcript of the session, he stood confused, yet somewhat annoyed. He handed the same slave the transcript his slave had made in the Athenian assembly, and handed it to the Orator, who read it out loud.

"Athenians, euobians, spartans and korinthians alike, I'm saddened to hear our Rhodian friends have not been able to come at this meeting, yet times are descisive. We ask for the support of the Polemarchos, for if he, would be able to capture the Delphoi city, we might have a fighting chance to sorround and destroy our biggest foe once and for all. Yet, it is not the time, for our men, while acheiving great and bloody victories, have succumbed to the Hades. We must certainly make good use of our navy, by sailing, if we have enough time to attack the beseiging army by sea, to free Demetrias from the makedonian army, but we must act fast, for if Demetrias falls, more men would die, we must rush to destroy the army, yet we must bring the plight of urgent help to the Lakedaimonians, Euobians and the Pelopponesos, so that we do not sacrifice more lives than needed. Please, all those lives now resting in the Elysean fields would see the horror of them having died for nothing. We must ask the euobians to levy as many men as they can, if they cannot, to build a military building for the next time needed. We ask as hellenoi, not Athenoi or Rhodoi, but as a common plight for all greek men."

He asked a pupil of him, to write his speech so that he may say it once more, when he would respond the spartan invitation to the assembly, to which he had not visited in two years.

I PROPOSE we ask the whole alliance for help, so Demetrias may not fall to the enemy. And let the men join their armies when no longer needed if the y so wish.
I PROPOSE we levy men from Athenai to add them to the allied army.
I PROPOSE that if there's time enough, to make a hybrid attack to the besieging army (however I believe there's not enough time)
I PROPOSE we levy men from Euobia and if not possible, to build a barracks to do so.
I PROPOSE we reinforce the allied army with the Athenian men.
I PROPOSE we ask the Polemarchos if he is able to assist in the defense.
I PROPOSE we strike the Arche Makedonia in it's heart, with support from the Polemarchos and any other Hellenic army (If Demetrias is freed and we have enough men to defeat the garrison).
I PROPOSE we give the slaves captured in Demetrias to the spartans, as helots and slaves so their population issue may resolve.

"FOR HELLAS IS POWERFUL AND THEIR MEN'S BRAVERY AND VALOR ARE EVEN MORE!"

"Welcome, it is a shame to see there were not any more Rhodoi with you, yet I'm glad Poseidon accepted the offer and brought you with good health.
Yes, I proposed to strike the Makedonians, because their armies are larger than ours, yet, it is true, we must refrain ourselves and act with calm and thought.
I also agree with all of your proposals, Lesbos must be liberated by the athenian army so the trade may be more fruitful, since I believe the spartans would not make a hybrid attack on lesbos.
Doros should go to the Agoge, yet he must do it while he is young, 19 years old is too old I'm afraid. But the assembly has spoken. If there are no more proposals or discussions, I may now go to Lakedaimonia to hear and advice the assembly. While there are rumors of a Spartan Nationalist Party, which would do wrongdoings in our alliance, some measures to help the alliance must be put in place, we cannot afford any polis to disassemble what we so fruitfully made together."
"Councilor Demosthenes, welcome, I see that you come from Sparte, I believe the roads to be free of bandits, as I must rush, so I will adress your points without going to deep. While I agree with all of those whom you agreed with, the ones who you disagreed would be in the long run, so I understand. I have a problem with the proposal you said you put in place in the assembly, that would make us fall backwards, since all the time would be lost in stopping the buildings, mercenaries are expensive, of course. But do we really need them? These are times when we need to watch our finances, and wasting them in Mercenaries instead of our buildings would be a very big mistake, what if, even with the mercenaries, we are defeated? We would have to yet, regain all the lost money, and build from the ground up our buildings. I will go to the spartan assembly now, so that I may inform my opinions and ask for assistance. Farewell to all, I will try to ride to Athenai if I'm able, if not I will rejoin my Strategos in the camp."

He then spoke.

"I am sorry, but the city of Demetrias was captured by an Allied city, you alone cannot choose which type of government to put in place. I PROPOSE we install a Type III government, so that it remains neutral, as neither of our city armies captured it.
Yet, that is another topic for another time, for we may lose it, and we need your help, either from Korinthos or Sparte, or else the lives given for it's attack, will become useless and unfruitful. We MUST DEFEND IT NOW. That is why, I officially validate PROPOSAL I and VI in this assembly, and I ask your support urgently.
I also utterly DISAGREE with my fellow athenian's proposal, since It would put in danger our whole economical progress, I would rather lose a thousand man and be able to recruit more, than lose two thousand and lose buildings and our ability to defend ourselves.

I salute you, for I am now welcome, and I hope it will stay like this."

Leumenes sat down, watching what the Sparte Nationalist had to say about his first commentary.

~Jirisys ()

[ArtoriusRex]

Nikolas arrived soon after Leumenes did, still dressed in full armour. With a grin he said

"Men of Sparta! We have had a great victory this day. I am unable to tell you how good it was to squash those Macedonians underfoot, nor the elation felt at finally capturing the city which had caused our greatest defeat. However we must take note that we can no longer decide what the Alliance Army does next, I was only with the Strategos because Areas had sent along his son with the rest of the army, at the request of Athens. However remember our defeat the first time we besieged Demitrias, remember those we lost because we became drunk on victory."

He nodded towards Leumenes, a smug smile on his face "It pleases me to see the man who caused so much trouble living up to his promises to work for the Alliance, and I have heard tell of an Athenian undergoing training here in Sparta. My friends it pleases me to hear such words, never before have we worked together, we two cities, more maginmously than on this day! The Athenians support us, embrace our ways, they even allow us to continue in a campaign that by right of office is theirs to run and for that I am thankful. However we must not rush brashly into the situation as it is now, we must send all the units we can for retraining in Athens, and levy Hoplati, not hopeless light hoplites barely worthy of the name, but true Greek Hoplites, clothed in armour and with the best weapons available. Once this is done we must unite the two armies and send them north, retrained and supported the Alliance army will be stronger than ever before, and nothing will stand in our way!"

He paused for breath, and to allow the crowd's cheering to subside "But, men of Sparta, as we have seen we are far too strong in the way of skirmishers, and we have seen how the heavy horse of Macedon wreak havoc on our lines. I propose we send some of the skirmishers to Sparta to disband, and raise up in their place heavy Hoplati. With this new, powerful force we shall be able to cut down Macedon. With this beseiging army out of the way, Macedon will be on its last legs, with just the King of Macedon and his army all that stands between us and removing the black shadow that threatens all Greeks forever. This time they have made the move to beseige, I say that they forget what they did to us, and forget that we Greeks can learn. We shall use their strategy against them! With a new, strengthened army we shall march north, more powerful than ever, and beat them back. With that army out of the way, I say don't bother to stop, march north and root them out of their rat's nest and enslave it!"

A man came and whispered in his ear, and Nikolas grinned "Men of Sparta and of Athens, Greeks. I have heard that we already have a powerful unit of Hoplati in our command. You do not know of it? Well let me refresh your memory, it is one of the garrison units of Chalkis! All we must do is send it to Sparta to retrain, and to Athens to strength its arms and armour, then we men of Sparta can support it with further Hoplati which we shall then use to strengthen the Alliance Army. When that is said and done, let us do as Leumenes suggested and build a III government in Demitaris. Men of Sparta, the end of the Macedonian threat is at hand!" And so he went to sit, waiting to see what the men of Athens, those who could authoritate such ideas, would say.

SUMMARY:

Proposal 1: Replace all but the most experienced of the skirmisher units in the Alliance Army with Hoplati from Sparta.

Proposal 2: Send the Hoplati unit from Chalkis to retrain in Sparta and to get a weapons and armour update in Athens.

Porposal 3: Retrain all of the most valuable Alliance Army units. Any we don't need should be divided between Sparta and Chalkis to be decided what to do with on a later date. I would suggest disbandment.

Proposal 4: When we capture Pellas we should enslave it.

I Agree...: That a type III government should exist in Demitaris.

I Agree...: That we should rescue Demitaris soon as we've reinforced the Alliance Army.

I Agree...: That when we rescue Demitaris we should try to take down Macedon one and for all.

I Agree...: That the slaves from Demitaris should go to Sparta.

[MIDN Mainolfi]

Jirisys, I have updated the post above yours to contain your proposals, please give it a once over to ensure that I have placed the right proposals in. Thanks!

@ArtoriusRex: If the Athenians are only validating certain proposals, I believe your last 3 agreements would be unvalid. They would have to become proposals and voted on from there, however, this might upset our Athenian guests, as they would've validated them if they wanted them. Again, that's only if I'm understanding what has happened correctly. Even then, I'm not saying you can't propose them, you can propose whatever you want, I only urge you to take heed when doing so!

[Diomede]

NEW PROPOSALS:

I AGREE that we should maintain a direct line of communication between the councils. I have become disilusioned with the ways of the Spartan Nationalist Party and am inspired by the words of Cassibellane. I would like to found the Lacedaemonion Unionists and our symbol shall be a Spartan helmet on a black background.

I DISAGREE with hiring mercenaries.

I DISAGREE with Ranger Blue's proposal. Corinth can provide skirmishers, our troops should become Hoplites.

I AGREE with all three of Jirisys' proposals.

I AGREE with all four of Rex's proposals.

I PROPOSE that when we eventually besiege Pella, we starve them out rather than assault the walls.

[MIDN Mainolfi]

Okay, couple of announcements, nothin' major.

First of, Good Luck Diomede, I shall advertise your party in the next update lists, as I did for the SNP. I just remembered that this session only has about an hour left, so I'll give you a spot on a fresh list!

Secondly, I will make a new position on the update lists at the bottom of the lists for anything having to deal with the Alliance as a whole. Anything having to do with proposals in between the alliances will be found there. Not to imply that Spartan business is more important than alliance, but that way there is always a set position for it, and our Athenian visitors can find it easily, instead of having to jump around to find it. So, even if it's brand new, it will be at the bottom. Again, that will start next update.

Also, if your proposal is alliance related, and not just concering Sparta's actions, please specify so that I will know where to put it, and you know where to look should you choose to use the list! Again, next update!

Thanks guys!

@Beckitz: I shall also post your anit-enslavery proposal on the next update, that way people have a chance to see it for awhile, and also so that it doesn't get lost amongst the thread before it even has a chance to be looked at!

[Beckitz]

Debate and dialogue represented a type of warfare in their own right, with proposals and counter-proposals being bandied about like sharp swords in the hands of ambitious demagogues. Politics was politics, as it was, always had been, and certainly always would be; some men thrived in it, seizing great fame and power for themselves as they ascended the social ladder into immortality. Others turned their nose at it in disgust - ostensibly because they considered it beneath them, but perhaps more because they simply lacked the talent to hold their own.

Epidamnus was quite old, and only growing older. The Gods had given him the privilege of a prosperous and agreeable life, filled with many happy years spent with kin and friends. He had countless estates, and a small army of sons and grandsons to look proudly upon. By all respects, he should have long ago retired to the countryside, living out the last years of his life free from worry and statecraft.

But his love for Sparta called him down a different road. The advisory council he participated in was young; both itself and in terms of its members. It was filled with optimism, ambition, and energy, but if there was anything it was missing, it was the time-tested values of temperance, wisdom, and foresight. If Epidamnus could, in the closing days of his life, impart the lessons of his life upon this new generation, he could die a happy man.

"Men of Sparta," he opened, his hands trembling idly upon the knob of his cane, "hear me well. I know that victory against our barbarian oppressors is close, and the excitement may seem palpable to you. Yet even as our hour of liberation draws near, you must ensure that your excitement and anticipation does not lead you towards foolishness and impetuousness."

He quietly coughed up some phlegm before he continued. "The world we live in is cyclical; what one man puts out, he shall receive soon enough in time. As we advance upon the barbarian king in Pella, let us not forget the lessons of these past years. This alliance of Hellenes is built upon a simple premise; that we have resolved slavery and subjugation to be incompatible with the spirit of free men. Let us not, in our moment of freedom, become the oppressors ourselves. For how ghastly and barbaric should it be if we men, once slaves, become slave-masters?"

"I therefore disagree with the proposal to enslave the citizens of Pella upon its capture, and I further propose that we, from this day forward, never enslave a free city so long as this Alliance stands."

[The Kybrothilian]

I disagree with Beckitz's proposal. Helots are needed to work on public construction projects whilst citizens fight in the war.

[Populus Romanus]

Populus stumbled into the hall, sweating and gasping for breath. He rushes to the center of the floor, and began to open his mouth to speak, when to his dismay he spotted the scribe strolling out of the Council with the scrolls for the meeting.
"Drat!" he shouted in frustration at his lateness, "Men of Sparte, although I am too late to add in my final opinions, I can still state them. I believe that sending the Army of Sparte on any overseas campaign is bad idea. So far from home, with absolutely no hope of reinforcement, is like sending our citizens soldiers to a slaughter house. This is no undertaking appropriate for a small sized Army such as our own - only an army reinforced with the strength of the Army of the Koinoin could ever successfully mount an offensive of this level of risk. We should reserve the Army of Sparte for ventures that have less risk of total annihlation, like the conquest of Aitolia and Epeiros. Not to mention Kreta is really of little strategic value, being too far away from everything to do anything, and Lesbos is already claimed by Athenai as their own, and would just draw us into the cutthroat struggles of Asia Minor before necessary, or wise.

[Ranger Blue]

I Propose that no attack upon Mytilene be carried out until reports of the siege of Pergamon are received, and found to be favourable.
I Propose that Rhodos support the Alliance with it's own troops, if possible. They are by far the largest city, but as of yet have not contributed men, while Sparte is practically a ghost town! If the military infrastructure isn't there, I Propose it be built as soon as possible.
I Propose that a military force only be sent to aid the greeks of Syrakousai after Makedon/Epirus have been defeated and Thermon taken, unless an army from Sparte or Athens takes it upon themselves to go. The Alliance army is needed here for now, and cannot be spared.

To Populous:
Surely you can see that the garrison in place at Thermon is larger even than the Makedonian army at Mytilene. On top of that, the greeks currently residing in Pergamon are assisting us in fighting them (that may not be their intent, but it is still true). Also, taking Mytilene would not necessarily mean an immediate strike into Asia Minor. The military benefits may be some time off, but the economic benefits would be immediate.

To Molina:
As this campaign progresses, will their be more armies allowed, or will the limit remain at 3 throughout?

EDIT:
I Agree with Beckitz proposal on slavery. Free cities are merely misguided in the belief that they will not benefit from being within the Koinon. Cities belonging to opposing factions however, are free the be enslaved, to send a message to their rulers.

I Agree with Savagefeats proposal on the extermination of Pella. These false hellens deserve everything they get, and the extra boost to our coffers wouldn't hurt either.

[Populus Romanus]

Men of Sparte, I have quite a bit to say and not much time to say it, so I'll say it quick. First of all, our spy's intelligence report from Asia Minor has reported the presence of a huge Makedonian army, and they will inevitably conquer Pergamom. That would make an invasion of Asia Minor even more unfeasible, for obvious reasons. Secondly, our Romanoi allies have been successful in our proxy war, and have defeated all Epeirote presence in Megale Hellas. Epeiros is now very weak, and the time to strike is soon. However, the Army of Sparte is currently far too weak to begin this brutal endeavor in its current decimated state. Therefore, this war will certainly have to wait. However, we have to strengthen ourselves for the war to come. This leads into my next point. We should seperate the Army of Sparte from the Army of the Koinoin and march it back to Sparte for retraining. While they are marching, we should train Hoplitai constantly to bring them up to their rightful strength. Some may complain about the population depletion of Sparte. I say that this is a time of war. Our armies our consisted of citizen levies who are always called up to service in times of war, and they know what to expect. When the crisis has passed, we shall disband those units of citizens who are no longer necessary inside of Lakonia so that they continue their lives as normal, tending their fields and providing as many new children to bolster our armies as is physically possible. Once the retraining and reinforcing has been completed, then the time is right to march on the Epeirote Barbaroi. However, that is definently something that will not occur until next year, because of the distances involved. However, due to the mindless resistance of some Councilmen, I would like to point out that if we procrasitnate with this war, its going to come back and bite us in the ass, I am certain of it. Quite frankly, it is plain to all that Makedonia is going to die in Hellas shortly. Their days are numbered. Once we have wiped them out here, the only challenger to our dominance in Hellas is Epeiros. I also want to say that Pella, the Makedonian capitol, should not be enslaved as some Councilors here would like to see happen. These men are possessed by hatred and grudges, but they would do well to remember that these are things of Barbaroi - coincidentaly, exactly what they accuse Makedonians of being as justifaction for their actions. I say that clemency is key. As we have learned from Demetrias, the citizens of conquered states are none to keen to accept us as their rulers when our first action is to carry away the majority of their citizens to a life of miserable slavery. The key to good public relations is clemency. We should construct a level II government in Pella in order to absorb them into the Koinoin Hellenon smoothly, without much fuss. Men of Sparte: TO VICTORY!

I fervently DISAGREE with savage feat's extermination proposal
I fervently DISAGREE with Ranger Blue's proposal to invade Megale Hellas to aid Syrokousai
I AGREE with Ranger Blue's proposal to not invade Asia Minor without favorable results of the Siege of Mytilene, with the addition that we never invade at all.
I AGREE with Ranger Blue's proposal that Rhodos supply troops
I PROPOSE that Asia Minor not be invaded any time soon
I PROPOSE that the Army of Sparte be reinforced and retrained (but later part of it disbanded in Lakonia)
I PROPOSE that Epeiros be invaded - - LATER!
I PROPOSE that Pella not be sacked, but occupied and given level II government

Man, this certainly didn't turn out as short as I planned.

[MIDN Mainolfi]

Populus, would be willing to make a list of definite proposals so I don't mess up when I paste them? I want to make sure that what I post is right, is all. I have also noticed that our Athenian guests have once again graced us with their presence! Please feel free to take the floor!

@Ranger Blue, I updated the mass paste post with your agreements and proposals. Let me know if I did the proposals wrong.

@Populous: Thanks! Everything is posted! And I cannot celebrate my 100 posts without commending you for your 200 posts! Yee-haw!

[Populus Romanus]

Populus, would be willing to make a list of definite proposals so I don't mess up when I paste them? I want to make sure that what I post is right, is all. I have also noticed that our Athenian guests have once again graced us with their presence! Please feel free to take the floor!

@Ranger Blue, I updated the mass paste post with your agreements and proposals. Let me know if I did the proposals wrong.

Done.

Darn! I lost a party member, then. Come on, people! Join the Sparte Nationalist Party (SNP) to represent the best interests of Sparte, the Allies, the Koinoin Hellenon, and all the Hellenes everywhere. Join the SNP, people! Join!





200 posts! Woo-hoo!

[Ranger Blue]

I fervently DISAGREE with Ranger Blue's proposal to invade Megale Hellas to aid Syrokousai

I'd like to point out that I am AGAINST sending men to Syrakusai until after Makedon/Epirus are defeated OR the Spartan/Athenai army goes themselves. I made no comment on whether or not I thought they should, but I don't believe any army should yet.

Would it be possible to clarify my point perhaps? Change it to something like "I Propose no action be taken in Sicily by the Alliance army until Makedon and Epirus have been destroyed"? I'm not sure if Populous meant that no action should be taken at all, but this should help clear things up.

As to other proposals:

I Agree with Populous' proposals 1, 2 and 3, although I believe a new vote will take place with regards to when Epirus will be invaded. I've already stated my position on Pella.

I Agree with Gotenus' 1, Disagree with 2 and 3. There is no way we can fund/raise an army fast enough and of enough size to be of use without reinforcements.