[EB AAR] Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Sparte

[jirisys]

Come on guys, the Athenians have sent their orders, tell me what Sparta should do!

Typical spartan assembly...

~Jirisys (Gets the **** out of here)

[Molina]

254 BC

Athenian motions:
-Reinforce the Alliance Army with troops recruited in Athenai. (Yes)
-Build better barracks at Kydonia and Chalkis, which would allow us to raise armies faster. (Yes)
-Expand the Military Port of Rhodes. (Yes)
-Polemarchos Poublios Karnasios is reassigned to Mikra Asia and replace Nikanor as the head commander there. This because Nikanor has proven unreliable to obey the Athenai assembly's wishes. (Yes)
-Reinforce the Athenai Army in Mikra Asia with professional troops. (Yes)
-Take a defensive stance in Mikra Asia. (Yes)
-Nikanor to return to Athenai and resumes his studies. (Yes)
-Doros is made Governor of Athenai. (Yes)
-Send a spy to Byzantion to update us on the situation there. (Yes)
-when the government of Pergamon has been properly established that we build stone walls around Pergamon, making the polis easier to defend from the Arche Seleukeia.

-Disband our levy troops in the Athenian Armies. Recruit professional troops like Epilektoi Hoplitai and Thorakitai to take their place. (Under recruitment in Athenai)
-Help the people of Dalmatia to appoint a new ruler of their own (Vollorix) who will manage the great potential wealth of the silver and gold mines and the trade of the region and who can protect it from the attacks of the other barbarians. (Not yet, doesn't it require the last level of local barracks to recruit a client ruler? Should I cheat to get those?)

Spartan motions:
-Build a new barracks at Sparte. (Not enough mnai, but the previous barracks improvement finished)
-Capture Serdike with the Alliance army and army of Sparte, but that it shall remain a neutral poleis, "liberated" from Epeirotes and returned to native rule. (Serdike under siege)
-After that the Alliance army marches on Bizantion. (Not yet)

The following law has passed: "The Recognition of Zones of Interest and Expansion between the Poleis Athenai and Sparte". It has been included in the Koinon Politeia.

The Battle of Serdike

254 BC would be remembered for the Battle of Serdike, but that was not the only event of this year. Doros passed command of the Koinon Stratia (Alliance Army) to the new Strategos, Agis, and returned to Athenai as the Eponymous Archon (governor) of the polis, as appointed by the Athenian assembly. His brother, Nikanor, also returned and was tutored by his older brother. The polis flourished under Doros's governance. In Pergamon, Poublios became the new commander of the Athenian Army and the garrison of Pergamon. He ordered the construction of stone walls around the polis. In Sparte the improvements to military recruitment were completed. While in Chalkis they only begun. Akrotatos had a son to continue his dynasty of Spartan Kings. Hippias would eventually succeed his father, as his father had succeeded Areus. Damasos took the Sparte Reserve Army to patrol the Koinon's domain in preparation for the campaign against Serdike. He attacked a small Epeirote scouting party that could have been dangerous to the hellenic peasants in the countryside. Our spies discovered that Byzantion had been conquered by the Basileion of Pontos. Now if this small polis was to be added to the Koinon, a new war would have to be started. And yet another war was possible. The Getai tribes were moving towards the south, to Tylis, just east of Serdike. They are our allies for now, but barbarians can't be trusted. In Rhodos a military naval bay was finished. And in both Sparte and Athenai, well equipped and trained men were continuously recruited to support our military. The campaign against Serdike was led by Strategos Agis. Even though members of the Spartan Krypteia usually don't leave Lakonia, an exception was made for him, as it was his responsability to lead the great army of the Koinon. The Army of Sparte, led by the two Kings, marched behind the Alliance Army. After a few skirmishes in the mountains, the main field armies eventually faced each other near Serdike. Archiadas Kathraios, pretender of the Epeirote throne, led the barbaric men of Dardonia. This was Agis first battle as a Strategos, but he was a confident and promising Spartan. In the front Agis held the line against the barbarian troops. The Army of Sparte was coming from behind the epeirotes to flank them. Akrotatos led the spartans, but it took some time to reach the main forces of Epeiros. The barbarians did everything to distract and delay our reinforcements. With the arrival of the spartans, the barbarians were completely flanked and their line broke. Archiadas retreated to Serdike with only a few of his once vast army. A great hero became part of the Strategos's guard for his valour in the battle. Serdike was besieged and would likely fall during the winter. But one of our own poleis was sieged as well! A numerous Seleukid army besieged Pergamon. Poublios requested orders from the Athenian assembly on how to deal with this situation. Serdike, in the beginning of the winter, was still under siege and could fall at any time. Such is the situation of our holdings in Hellas and Asia. Kydonia and Rhodos are excluded in this map: http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4461/037bwp.jpg

The polis session for 253 BC is now open.

[Populus Romanus]

I propose that the Alliance army assault Thessaly. Merge the the Army of the Alliance of the Hellenes with the Army of Sparte, then march into Attike. With the Makedonian forces spread so thin, it should be simple to destroy each isolated group piecemeal. Then march north and seize Demetrias without much of a struggle. We must also levy a navy in order to capture Mytilene and save the Greeks from Pontos.

[Diomede]

We promised the Athenians we wouldn't march through their lands though! The Alliance Army should head the reinforcements off While Chalkis is taken. If the Athenians permit, we may then advance north to prevent the isolated armies from retreating. Should they allow this, it should be a Spartan army that then moves on to conquer liberate Thessaly.

[Populus Romanus]

But alone, the Alliance Army and Spartan Army are too small to do much at all. Together, they are a formidable force. Perhaps we should convince the Athenians to forget about not letting Spartans in Attica. If you look at the screenshots, you will see that the Athenian army besieging Chalkis is too small to dea with all the reinforcements, and it appears that they probably could hardly cope with the armies already there. If the Athenians refuse--then screw them! They are not the only ones in this Alliance, and if we let them rule us, then the very purpose of this alliance-freedom-has already been defeated. We Spartans do not have to be ruled by feeble Athenians!:sparta: The mission at hand, destroying Makedonia and liberating Hellas, is more important than the words of a few "men". Quite simply, this is an opportunity that we cannot afford to let down: the chance to absolutely cripple the Makedonian military and deprive them of half their remaining provinces. But the risks are great too, because if we fail to attack now, the Army of Athens will be crushed and Athens taken. Decisive action and overwhelming force must be applied, because we of the Alliance cannot afford to lose this opportunity, and lose one of our founding cities. Nothing short of such can suffice.
I rest my case.

[Diomede]

This is a military matter, remember, what seems to make sense to us is alien at times to our apparent allies.

I PROPOSE: we create the facilities necessary to train large numbers of cavalry to cut our reliance on Athens. By procuring this, we shall be able to regain part of their garrison for the Alliance army.
I PROPOSE: that we do everything possible to retain Corinth's good will following our liberation of them. By promoting Corinthians within the Alliance Army and allowing them a place within our own, it will cement them to our side, so that we maintain our voting majority.
I PROPOSE: that we make an effort to bring Thermon round to our cause once more. The Epeirotes are aggressive, and we may be able to take advantage of this. However, we should also attempt to gain trade rights with the Epeirotes themselves.
I PROPOSE: that the Hegemon allocates sufficient resources to the Athenians to alleviate any food shortages, real or imagined, so that in time they may lift their blockade of our forces in Attika.

[Populus Romanus]

I AGREE with proposition 1
I AGREE with proposition 2
I AGREE with proposition 3
I AGREE with proposition 4
I PROPOSE that the Army of the Alliance march into Attike and engage the Makedonians, but as they are to weak to take Demetrias alone, not to assault it.
I PROPOSE that the Army of Sparte march on Thermon and capture it, in accordance with PROPOSITION 3.
I PROPOSE that the we raise a Fleet of the Alliance.

[Diomede]

I AGREE with proposition one, with the provisio that we besiege it if more successful than planned.
I AGREE with proposition two.
I DISAGREE with proposition three. A navy will require too much mnai to maintain, that could go towards the military. (Wait, My memory is correct that there's a landbridge just south of Thermon right?)

[Populus Romanus]

The Athenians require a fleet to get to Mytilene in order to capture it from the Makedonians, and the Alliance needs a fleet in order save Sinope from Pontus. Plus, we cannot allow the Makedonians to have control of the sea. For goodness sake, two of our member cities are based of seafaring. (btw-who controls Rhodos? Will they play any part at all?) All in all, the time to build a fleet is now.
I PROPOSE that we make those lazy Rhodos-ians build the fleet.

[Diomede]

lol, fair point.
I AGREE we should make Rhodes build it. And foot the bill.

[Diomede]

Hey... I see you're also over on .org. Hi.

[ArtoriusRex]

An old warrior, long lurking in the back of the council, strode to the front. Many men admired his scars and tanned skin, wondering through what circumstances he had earned both. His long brown hair, shot through with grey, tumbled over his shoulders, making him have the appearance that he wore a lion's mane. In a great bull's voice the man, Nikolas Classis by name, roared to the crowd

"Men of Sparta, many years I have served our city, and all free Greeks, and I admire your courage and your thirst to liberate Greek Lands from the hated Macedonians. But where has famous Greek wisdom gone? Where are our tacticians?" He shook his head "Must I put it bluntly? Are you all fools not to see this? The army of Athens is not strong enough to talk Chalkis!" He peered around the crowd, daring someone to defy him "More so, Athens has not given us permission to cross their lands, and so all hope of aiding them is gone unless," He said sarcastically "you in fact, want civil strife?" No one responded and so he continued "An army of Macedon, while the Athenians diligently, and courageously, try to reduce the strength of the garrison of Chalkis through starvation this force has snuck in behind them and is now almost upon Athens itself! Not only that, but mighty Sparta, our capitol, lies nearly undefended." The warrior stopped for breath, letting his words sink in and then continued.

"As in the days of old, it shall be hoplites and phalangites that hold when all else fails. Why recruit horsemen, and follow the example of Macedon, when we can stop their horses dead with a solid line of spears? Therefore I Propose that we dedicate our funds to the support of infantry recruitment infrastructure, to allow ourselves to recruit sturdy hoplites while Macedon is still training levies. Let us follow the way of the warrior and bolster the now poor garrisons of Corinth and Sparta with not skirmishers, though they are of use, but with hoplites instead! Have you, men of Sparta, not been bred on tales of how noble Leonidas held off the whole of the Persian army with naught but his three hundred elite to buy the rest of us free Greeks some time to escape and preserve the full might of our army to defeat the dreaded Xerxes later? Let us recruit hoplites, and if possible, send them to support the Athenians."

But the warrior raised a finger among the wave of cheers from the younger men "However, as Athens has told us we must not march across their land, I must regrettably state, that though we should aid them and forget their poxed request, that the taking of Chalkis and the defeat of Macedonian reinforcements is their battle alone." Whispers spread among the crowd "Now I say this not out of a grudge against Athens, but out of respect. If we are to fight amongst ourselves then surely our enemies will overtake us, but if we respect on another then we hold firm." The warrior then grinned, and raised his head with a triumphant gleam "But Athens said naught of the leader of the Alliance Army crossing their lands. So I beg of you, send Areus north, to blockade against any more Macedonian relief forces coming south, while the Spartan army hold the pass between Athens and the rest of Greece. Hopefully between the two they will hold while an army is raised in Sparta and Corinth. However, as I said before leave Chalkis and that one support army to Athens!" And with that the warrior retired back to the rear of the Council, and waited to see what his peers would say.

SUMMARY:

Proposal 1: Support infantry-based infrastructure to allow for the recruitment of hoplites and phalangites.

Proposal 2: Bulk up the armies of both Corinth and Sparta in case of a Macedonian invasion.

Proposal 3: Leave Chalkis and the one small relief force to Athens alone.

Proposal 4: Move the Alliance Army north to blockade the way down from Athens and stop reinforcing Macedonians from having free reins in barely defended Greece by any means necessary. (IE. Mercenaries, recruiting new units, etc.)

Proposal 5: Move the Spartan Army to blockade the small land bridge between the land of Athens and the land of Corinth to hold off any Macedonians who make it through Areus' net also by any means necessary. (See above)

PS: Also, any of you who are at TW.Org, please beg them to allow Spartan forces through if it is in your power!

[Populus Romanus]

I PROPOSE that we build a barracks at Sparta. Currently, our polis, famed for its heavy infantry, is incapable of training anything except for shameless skirmishers. This is an outrage, and must be rectified immediately. Once the barracks is completed, we must commence training hoplites so that the Army of Sparta may actually be a proper Army instead of a wandering band of peasants. I am not merely speaking of cavalry here, but specifically infantry. Also, currently the composition of the Army of Sparta is largely skirmishers and hoplitai haploi-also known as useless levies. Once a proper barracks is constructed, we should make the recruitment of hoplitai our top priority.

[Populus Romanus]

Excellent post! +rep!
I AGREE with proposal 1.
I AGREE with proposal 2.
I DISAGREE with proposal 3. We are allowed to move the Army of the Alliance into Athenian territory, just not the Army of Sparta. By all means, send in the Army of the Alliance!
I AGREE with proposal 4. This is basically just reinforcing the Athenians, except instead joining their main army, we watch their back in an offensive manner.
I DISAGREE with proposal 5. The Army of Sparta could be put to much better use attacking Aitolia. As long as the Army of the Alliance does their job, there is no need to worry.
Unfortunately, after I proposed letting Spartan forces into Attike on the .Org, I was executed for being a Spartan spy, so that option is closed to us.

[ArtoriusRex]

Nikolas walked from the back of the room while the men of Sparta still whispered to one another over the words of the noble Populus. The grizzled warrior grinned broadly and thumped his supporter on the back heartily

"Thank you for your words friend Populus, and for your stern words of advice concerning the use of our troops. My condolences on the death of your servant in Athens. However my discouragement of sending men to support the Athenians directly is not one of not recognizing our supreme military authority under the Alliance Army, but one of honour. If Athens sees us abusing our power- which is how they would see it- and taking away their glory and honour, then it hurts our chances of having this great honour of spearheading the Alliance forces again in three years' time. A great victory will only increase their respect for our own honour in listening to their request, and make them more favourable to our point of view next time around. However on the other side of the coin, a defeat will likely make them reconsider our advice."

Nikolas strode away from Populus, and walked into the center of the floor "Men of Sparta, can our army undertake a siege? Do we have the men who can brawl in the street with the best of them? No? Then the army of Sparta should not undertake the assault of a city. Let them, for now, handle matters in the field, while the armies of Athens and the Alliance deal with the cities. However I do agree with the proposal of noble Populus to build a fleet. Rhodes is ill-used at the moment, and a fleet made early will allow them to aid in our efforts later. Also, I recommend sending a diplomat to Pontus to sue for peace and for trade rights. There is no sense in going to war against a far-off nation over a town which was only long-ago an ally and member of this Alliance. I also propose sending a diplomat to speak with the tribes of Barbarian nations to the north. I have heard they are great metal workers, this would be something that could greatly aid our cause when it comes to trade, and if our knowledge and skill can aid them in harrying Rome than all the better! The longer the Romans stay away from our shores, the better we shall be prepared. We have one enemy, and one enemy only this day, men of Sparta, and that is Macedon!"

And with that mighty roar he went and sat clean at the front of the Council, tense and ready to defend his views.

SUMMARY:

Proposal 1: Let Athens be, their fate is their own to decide for now.

Proposal 2: Bulk up the Spartan Army with infantry, once it is sufficiently full, then we shall see what city takes our eye.

Proposal 3: Peace and trade with Pontus. Exploration to the North and trade with the Barbarian tribes, maybe map information?

I Agree...: That we should prepare a fleet in Rhodes. To add to that I Propose that we improve buildings of trade in Rhodes, an send some of their garrison to bolster either the army of Athens, allowing them to think that Areas didn't use his authority and thereby keeping to the agreement the Council of Athens made, or sending them to support the Alliance Army.

[Diomede]

Many of the proposals concerning the finer points of a military build up are too complicated for this priest to understand, however I agree with all, with a caveat: while it is merely an excuse to bar us from their lands, the farming methods currently used by Athenians and Spartans alike are somewhat basic. Food shortages may become a real problem in time, especially as our armies grow larger and thus the stress on local resources becomes more concentrated. After securing the funds to boost our military output and create a small navy, we must improve our farming infrastructure.

I DISAGREE with abandoning Sinope to their fate. While we are small and unable to assist militarily, a state of war with the Seleukid satrap must remain. To condone their actions by requesting a restoration of relations is obscene! What next, we fund their war against Trapezous? (ugh, hope that's spelt right)

However, I do AGREE that making contact with northern barbarians is a plan with several merits.

[Populus Romanus]

Wise Nikolas, your words have not fallen on deaf ears. After investigating the strength of the garrison of Thermon, I have found that they outnumber us by three to one (!). This was something that I had not anticipated, but you, a honorable veteran had. Indeed, before the Army of Sparta goes on any military expedition, it must be built up. However, the same must be said of the Army of the Alliance. Without the Army of Sparte or the Army of Athenai, it is left castrated, with merely the Army of Rhodos, hardly worthy of the title Army. So currently we are left with three near useless armies: the Army of Athenai, which is hopelessly outnumbered and not under our control, the Army of the Alliance, which is under our control and weak, and the Army of Sparte, which is under our control, weak, and not even allowed to leave the Peloponnesos. And this is a problem: there is no way out of the Peloponnesos without marching through Athenai territory. Eventually we must enter their territory. However, this day will come later rather than sooner, since our Army must be built up first. As for the reinforcing of the Army of Sparte, this is a simple matter. It is the building up of the Army of the Alliance which is complex. I propose that we recruit farmers from the rural areas to fight for us in order to raise its numbers. Also, an Army of Korinthos should be levied and merged with the Army of the Alliance. As for peace with Pontos, once again, I agree with you judgement, wise Nikolas. Your words ring with the truth, for there is nothing to be gained and everything to be lost by involving ourselves in distant foreign wars that are expensive and unwinnable. However, to gain trade rights would be too much, and could be taken as condoning their actions against Sinope. A ceasfire should suffice in my opinion. And of the Barbaroi: this is an excellent idea. The Makedonians have long been at war with the Barbaroi to the north, having them on our side could be of great benefit indeed. We should also turn them against the Epeirotes as well, for they will be quick to stab us in the back once the Makedonians are finished. Today we may be small, but tommorrow we will seize an empire. Men of Sparte, ON TO VICTORY!

*roaring applause*

I AGREE with proposition 1
I AGREE with proposition 2
I AGREE with proposition 3

[Populus Romanus]

I just looked at the Athenai forums and they agreed to let us into their territory if we attack Thessaly.

[Ranger Blue]

Because there have been many proposals made and I can't follow them all through, here's what I think we should do:

1. Build barracks that allow cavalry/infantry to be recruited in Sparta (this seems v. popular)
2. Don't build a navy yet. As someone already said, one small ship is equivalent in upkeep to 2 or 3 infantry units, and the recruitment is higher still. We would need at least 2 ships to be effective at all, and even then it could be easily destroyed.
3. Leave Athens be for now. They look overstretched, something we should be in favour of. If they need our help, let them ask for it. As already mentioned, WE should be the dominant ones, let's make it so by forcing them to come to us for help.
4. No Significant military strikes past the Isthmus (sp?), with three seperate armies, one besieging Chalkis, we won't make an impact. The city of Thermon is a great one, and as such probably commands a large army, and we cannot face more than a small force with any one of our armies. We could unite them, but that would A) call off the siege of Chalkis and B) defeat point 3. Once Sparta is capable of fielding it's own cavalry/infantry, then it should be considered.
5. No help for Sinope. We would need a large fleet to transport an army there, which we cannot afford. It would also leave our home cities free of a significant force, inviting attack. Perhaps there might be some way to persuade Pontos to call off the attack through diplomacy?
6. In Korinthos, build economically. Between Athens and Sparta, soon we will be able to field a decent army, which we have no way to pay for at the moment. No need for more of the same right now, which is what we'd get in Korinthos.

Aside from those, a question. From the looks of things with Rhodos/Korinthos, each of the two cities has control over other cities. Is this just based on who conquers that city or will you decide? Perhaps they could be used to bargain with (ex. Athens gives Sparta a navy for control of one of it's cities).

Great Idea, by the way. I hope it works out

[jirisys]

Not even the ally army can traverse our lands, you will need to change your plans.

~Jirisys ()