[EB AAR] Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Sparte

**~~The Kybrothilian~~** · February 05, 2011, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by |Sith|2|Lazyo

How do I participate?

Just check the rules at page 1 and the current situation at page 10 and the current propositions and it gets natural

**DarthLazy** · February 05, 2011, 09:21 AM

I STRONGLY Disagree with Beckitz Anti-Slavery Proposal. Slavery is a necessity of our time, and is needed to boost our population.More people:More Money:More Money: More Soldiers:MoreConquests:Yet more Money

I Agree with Savagefeat's Extermination Proposal. Those Pesky Macedonians need to be taught a lesson

I agree with all of Ranger Blues Military Proposals.

I agree with 2 and 4 of Jirisys Proposals. I disagree with points 1 and 3.

I PROPOSE That Sparta reform its army, disbanding many of its hoplites, and training a force of Prodromoi, to counter the slow moving phalanx of Macedon.

**~~The Kybrothilian~~** · February 05, 2011, 09:31 AM

I disagree with Sith2Lazyos proposal. Sparte is known for it's brave hoplitoi soldiers, not for cowardly cavalry tactics! The people of Korinthoi can supplement us with Podromoi and any else cavalry and ranged units. Besides I don't think Sparte even has hoplitoi currently.

**DarthLazy** · February 05, 2011, 09:36 AM

Recruiting them from allies is all the same. Once we have Pella, we can easily support them

**ArtoriusRex** · February 05, 2011, 10:12 AM

Nikolas strode into the Council room, grinning broadly. He said

"My friends it is good to see you all again, and I am proud to see that we continue to have a productive Council. However I would like to point out that trying to pit our cavalry against the heavy cavalry of Macedon is sheer suicide! If we want heavy cavalry, we shall recruit a few units of heavy cavalry mercenaries for the Alliance Army out by Demitaris. And having pointed out that we cannot compare to Macedon in cavalry that simply proves our need for more Hoplati, which we can recruit by the way, we just don't have the men. Listen to what I suggest, let us- after recruiting heavy cavalry mercenaries in the north, head back to the Thermopolye fort and send many of the units home; heavy skirmishers and levy hoplati to Athens, light skirmishers- sadly- to Sparta. However listen to what I suggest next. When we receive these light skirmishers I say we should disband them, they offer no advantage, and we now have a substantial treasury and so can take the upkeep fees of armoured troops. With these light skirmishers disbanded Sparta will be on the way to recovery."

Whispers went through the crowd, considering the proposal and then Nikolas continued "Now, I know this may reduce the Alliance Army's strength by quite a bit, but it is a sacrifice that Athens will make when we offer them something better in return; Hoplites. Leumenes speaks truth, and I agree with him. So keeping his proposals in mind, and the policy they entail; for every levy hoplite unit Athens sends to us we shall disband them, and retrain them as Hoplati, thereby not reducing our own population while still supplying the Alliance Army with powerful truth. Also, send the experienced Hoplati of Chalkis to us for retraining and then the Alliance Army, if they send us all the levy hoplites, shall have five strong units of heavy hoplites. Also, if it is possible, we should recruit further still levy hoplites in Corinth and Chalkis and send them to join the Alliance Army. Bolstered with such forces, we can forge north again and slay the King of Macedon and his son in their capital; striking a crippling blow to their kingdom. My friends, let us leave the western poli to themselves, we cannot help, and we certainly don't want to draw Rome to our shores at this time. I would also like to say that I support Diomede with the ideals of his party, and wish to join him. Onwards, Men of Sparta. Onwards to Victory!"

SUMMARY:

I Agree...: To Diomede's proposal for a new party.

I Agree...: To Leumenes' proposals.

I Disagree...: That Sparta should rely on cavalry.

I Disagree...: That we should support the Greek Cities in Sicily.

Proposal 1: Recruit two units of heavy Cavalry mercs in the north.

Proposal 2: Send the Alliance Army back to the Thermopolye fort.

Proposal 3: Send all light skirmishers to Sparta for disbandment and retrain all heavy skirmishers in Athens.

Proposal 4: Disband all levy hoplites in Alliance Army in Sparta; replace with Heavy Hoplites. Retrain Hoplite unit from Chalkis.

Proposal 5: Levy basic hoplites from Chalkis and Corinth for the Alliance Army.

**jirisys** · February 05, 2011, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by savage feat

I PROPOSE that Athenians can not speak in this Spartan council unless spoken for by a council member, I propose this because if Athenians have free speech in this council and vice versa then what would be the point of each having separate councils? With this proposal we will not deny all Athenian conversation just restrict.also they have their own council they can ask them then request from us to do what they want if we agree. I have also proposed this because this will stop Athenian spy's that might be lurking around these hallowed halls, I doubt that there are but I wish to take these surcurity protocols.

Originally Posted by Ranger Blue

As I understand it, Jisirys' proposal 1 is to create a seperate forum where we discuss on the position of the Koinon as a whole, rather than as each party before conferring? I Disagree, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. This system might not be perfect, but it works.
I Agree with 2 and 4.
I Disagree with 3.

Leumenes rode from Athens, it was a long journey, and the arrival was the toughest, upon hearing the new proposals, he asked his slave to leave for athens, his slave was one of best treated slaves of hellas, he even had his own horse.

Leumenes, looked like the day he heard Areus had lost the battle of Demetrias, yet, now more mature and calm, stood up.

"I see you wish the Allied army not to give your men back, for you not to have crops or army or taxes, rather the athenian boule would concurr that those men to become slaves. And that the allied army to be disbanded into the Athenian army, that we impose our old order of 'No spartan in Attike' and that alone would render you innefective for almost the whole time that we would have the strategos position, but imagine if we keep it and also the Hegemon! Your men would starve and YOU WOULD NOT EVEN UTTER ANY WORD AGAINST US, because you wouldn't be allowed in the Athenian boule or try to appeal to us, rather you would stay in your Gerousia and starve to death, as the slaves fall down dead too.

That would happen if your idiotic measure to be put in place. What saddens me is that only two of the newcomers are putting this motion to test. Those who never saw what this alliance became, after another young and reckless assemblyman put in motion the most discriminative measures to this same polis, where now, the same man, six years older, now bringing forth the most unificating of all measures to both assemblies, is stopped, by some young kids, who seem like they do not even have the age to be sent to the Agoge! I will not let you ruin this alliance, I vehemently DISAGREE with this utterly idiotic proposal."

Originally Posted by ArtoriusRex

Nikolas strode into the Council room, grinning broadly. He said

"My friends it is good to see you all again, and I am proud to see that we continue to have a productive Council. However I would like to point out that trying to pit our cavalry against the heavy cavalry of Macedon is sheer suicide! If we want heavy cavalry, we shall recruit a few units of heavy cavalry mercenaries for the Alliance Army out by Demitaris. And having pointed out that we cannot compare to Macedon in cavalry that simply proves our need for more Hoplati, which we can recruit by the way, we just don't have the men. Listen to what I suggest, let us- after recruiting heavy cavalry mercenaries in the north, head back to the Thermopolye fort and send many of the units home; heavy skirmishers and levy hoplati to Athens, light skirmishers- sadly- to Sparta. However listen to what I suggest next. When we receive these light skirmishers I say we should disband them, they offer no advantage, and we now have a substantial treasury and so can take the upkeep fees of armoured troops. With these light skirmishers disbanded Sparta will be on the way to recovery."

Whispers went through the crowd, considering the proposal and then Nikolas continued "Now, I know this may reduce the Alliance Army's strength by quite a bit, but it is a sacrifice that Athens will make when we offer them something better in return; Hoplites. Leumenes speaks truth, and I agree with him. So keeping his proposals in mind, and the policy they entail; for every levy hoplite unit Athens sends to us we shall disband them, and retrain them as Hoplati, thereby not reducing our own population while still supplying the Alliance Army with powerful truth. Also, send the experienced Hoplati of Chalkis to us for retraining and then the Alliance Army, if they send us all the levy hoplites, shall have five strong units of heavy hoplites. Also, if it is possible, we should recruit further still levy hoplites in Corinth and Chalkis and send them to join the Alliance Army. Bolstered with such forces, we can forge north again and slay the King of Macedon and his son in their capital; striking a crippling blow to their kingdom. My friends, let us leave the western poli to themselves, we cannot help, and we certainly don't want to draw Rome to our shores at this time. I would also like to say that I support Diomede with the ideals of his party, and wish to join him. Onwards, Men of Sparta. Onwards to Victory!"

SUMMARY:

I Agree...: To Diomede's proposal for a new party.

I Agree...: To Leumenes' proposals.

I Disagree...: That Sparta should rely on cavalry.

I Disagree...: That we should support the Greek Cities in Sicily.

Proposal 1: Recruit two units of heavy Cavalry mercs in the north.

Proposal 2: Send the Alliance Army back to the Thermopolye fort.

Proposal 3: Send all light skirmishers to Sparta for disbandment and retrain all heavy skirmishers in Athens.

Proposal 4: Disband all levy hoplites in Alliance Army in Sparta; replace with Heavy Hoplites. Retrain Hoplite unit from Chalkis.

Proposal 5: Levy basic hoplites from Chalkis and Corinth for the Alliance Army.

"I would like to agree to your proposals, yet, as an Athenian envoyee, I cannot agree with any proposal which does not affect the koinon as a whole. However, if you could, you could go to the Athenian boule for your last proposal, as it could not be made in the gerousia as it concerns matters from Athenian-supporting cities... (well, city, Chalkis) In which I doubt they will abide orders from sparta, yet I would like to see it in motion. I am glad the the Spartan Unionist Party was created, as we can both add substance and support to this great alliance, yet I am saddened to the Spartan Nationalist Party's ideals. Yet, I thank your support and I thank this seat, I am grateful for Sparta, yet, some of her Assemblymen do not seem to happy with our cooperation."

Leumenes sat down, with dissapointement on his face.

~Jirisys ()

**MIDN Mainolfi** · February 05, 2011, 11:40 AM

Epicydes slowly stood, rubbing his head. The tension in the room was thick enough to need a well-sharpened xiphos to cut through. Epicydes sighed heavily, "As unpopular as I'm sure these words will be through a large portion of this Spartan council, I must whole-heartedly agree with our Athenian guest. We have indeed begun to make strides in solidifying our alliance together as one unstoppable force. Yet, a proposal like this only makes our efforts for naught. It must be made aware that an Athenian proposal is not immediatley law! It is merely a proposal, like so many of you here have made. We have invited the Athenians back into our courts only recently, and now there are those among us that wish to drive them away once again? Abruptly halting the only form of communication with our brethern is irresponsible, foolish, and dangerous!"

Epciydes glared around the hall, no one said a word, "Yes, we do have two councils! These councils are to tend to Spartan and Athenian matters individually! A joint council of Spartan and Athenian Greeks is a united council all it's own that discusses what we will do as a whole! If it is desired to invade foreign lands, and we need help, propose in the Koinon Hellenon joint council! If a proposal concerning Spartan arms, territory or policy comes to mind, it is in the proper place in our Spartan council! This, my fiends, is only one of many situations that could, and certainly shall, arise! Every ounce of my being believes that this council between our two peoples is a necessity for survival!"

Basically: The Athenians cannot make decisions regarding Spartan cities, territory, or Sparta's army, and the same goes for the Spartans regarding Athens. The only proposals the Athenians make here are those regarding the Koinon Hellenon alliance and it's army. Also, what are the Athenians going to spy on? Yes, I understand that they could cut us off at the past on claiming cities and territory, but what else? There really is no plausible reason to dissolve the council, particularly when the fight to establish it was as difficult to achieve as it is to dissolve it! We can't work hard to move a step forward, and then work twice as hard to move two steps back!

**MIDN Mainolfi** · February 05, 2011, 11:46 AM

Just for future clarity, Savagefeats extermination proposal is dealing with the city of Pella if it is captured, and Pella alone.

Beckitz's anti-enslavery proposal is a proposal to adopt a standard policy for the rest of the game.

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Diomede's has formed a new party: The Lacedaemonian Unionists (LU)