Intel's texture swaps and tweaks (update 07.02.2010, feedback needed)

[intel]

Here I'll post new retextures, tweaks and most importantly- "how to" questions. I appreciate criticism.

[intel]

Original thread:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=418635

Spoiler for Progress so far: 

Macedonian general's bodyguard (Hiera Ile).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Original/New:


Macedonian Heitairoi

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Original/New:


Pergamon Royal Hypaspist

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Original/New


Pergamon Thorakitai Argyraspides

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Original/New:


Pergamon Hellenic Cataphract

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Original/New



Seleucid Hellenic Cataphract

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Original/New


Mounted Nakharars

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Original/New

[intel]

*another placeholder*

[dvk901]

I am not inclined to favor this very much....and I'll tell you why. Tone spent ages on horses and making SURE that the right units got the right horses. This sometimes involved a bit of trickery and fiddling, and it was a nightmare for the coder (me) to get it all right. He often had to make corrections because I just couldn't comprehend what he intended. So I am not opposed to 'updating' a model and all it's textures, as long as every single horse matches every single unit 'in kind' like it did before.

Also, when it comes to changing units 'period' bear in mind that textures MUST match unit cards. I don't want to get into the long ago battle of making sure 'this card matched that texture'......AND, if a new card is made it must match all the others in terms of consistent look. This may seem like I'm being picky, but we developed this with some pretty high standards of consistency...even if all the models weren't updated like some of the later ones.

Maybe you've taken all this into account and I'm just barking for no reason. I just wanted to make sure.

[intel]

I am not inclined to favor this very much....and I'll tell you why. Tone spent ages on horses and making SURE that the right units got the right horses. This sometimes involved a bit of trickery and fiddling, and it was a nightmare for the coder (me) to get it all right. He often had to make corrections because I just couldn't comprehend what he intended. So I am not opposed to 'updating' a model and all it's textures, as long as every single horse matches every single unit 'in kind' like it did before.

I can always make the "horse swap" optional. Though I succeed at swapping them It won't be a drastic change. If anything, it would be replacing the oldest horse types (vanilla) to newer ones, changing textures, but without changing models if possible.

Also, when it comes to changing units 'period' bear in mind that textures MUST match unit cards. I don't want to get into the long ago battle of making sure 'this card matched that texture'......AND, if a new card is made it must match all the others in terms of consistent look. This may seem like I'm being picky, but we developed this with some pretty high standards of consistency...even if all the models weren't updated like some of the later ones.

Seeing as most of my changes revolve around changing textures, it doesn't seem as if changing the unit cards would be any harder. Some colour swapping and that's all

Maybe you've taken all this into account and I'm just barking for no reason. I just wanted to make sure.

Sure, I am just a pawn


Though I think that many of my unit texture changes should remain optional.

[Visarion]

oh my god intel your units are so beutiful!!! keep it coming!

[tone]

Nice work Intel.
A few things to say though......

1) the armoured horse and the catapract horse aren't the same. I'll check what happened here as I created a higher resolution model for the cataphract horse....it dosn't appear to have got in the final release

2) I'd suggest toning down the purples a bit as they look too bright - generally you find that with textures - they need to be a lot duller on the texture as the game brightens them

3) You need some shadowing on the torsos where the cloak shadow would fall - see my skins for examples of what I did with later ones - e.g. the Romans

[tone]

oh you also need to invert the banding on the legs as I mentioned before

[intel]

Nice work Intel.
A few things to say though......
1) the armoured horse and the catapract horse aren't the same. I'll check what happened here as I created a higher resolution model for the cataphract horse....it dosn't appear to have got in the final release

Sure. For now, I am only making personal modifications to increase my knowledge of modding

2) I'd suggest toning down the purples a bit as they look too bright - generally you find that with textures - they need to be a lot duller on the texture as the game brightens them

It probably is the case with Seleucid Cataphracts-I shall tone them down a bit. I found Hiera Ile to be ok in that aspect, they don't look exagerated or out of place.

3) You need some shadowing on the torsos where the cloak shadow would fall - see my skins for examples of what I did with later ones - e.g. the Romans

You mean on the back of these bronze/iron breastplates? Sure, I will try

oh you also need to invert the banding on the legs as I mentioned before

Hmm, I am not entirely sure about what you meant. Should the banding be in front of the legs? Right now, judging from screenshots I've made, banding is placed somewhere near the calf.

[tone]

Oh and the Hiere Ile need to have that original colour cloak as it was originally researched by our Greek historians.

....and also careful with the textures at the sleeves so that you have a darker bit just there that looks like the hole at the end of the sleeve (it's particularly noticeable on the Pergamon cataphracts)

By inverting the banding I mean that the leg banding texture is upside down from how it is on the model so you need to turn the banding element so it looks upside down on the texture....by banding I mean the metal segment armour.

[tone]

Quote:
3) You need some shadowing on the torsos where the cloak shadow would fall - see my skins for examples of what I did with later ones - e.g. the Romans
You mean on the back of these bronze/iron breastplates? Sure, I will try

No I mean at the front around the neck area.
Also for example on the thorakitai argyraspides, the scale armour needs some shadowing where the shoulder reinforcements fall near the front...

[tone]

Something like this......look at the shadowing and the leg armour.

To be honest I think the original arm and leg armour looks better as the reflections and sense of seeing something circular are much better than this other one which looks much flatter.

Also to be honest, I'm not keen on things just being sexed up to look really cool if you end up losing historical authenticity.....there are reasons for some of the textures and so on that we have (like the thureophoroi shields and so on) - I know you're getting asked by people to do stuff to make things look sexy, but that's not the vision we have for RS2.

[intel]

Something like this......look at the shadowing and the leg armour.

To be honest I think the original arm and leg armour looks better as the reflections and sense of seeing something circular are much better than this other one which looks much flatter.

I'll work on this, though I'd rather use higher-res texture. If I won't be able to deliver appropiate shading then I'll simply copypaste that armour from Scythian or Parthian Cataphracts.
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Also to be honest, I'm not keen on things just being sexed up to look really cool if you end up losing historical authenticity.....there are reasons for some of the textures and so on that we have (like the thureophoroi shields and so on) - I know you're getting asked by people to do stuff to make things look sexy, but that's not the vision we have for RS2.

Sure, though I am not sure what is particulary "oversexed"

1) For Hiera Ile, I've seen numerous Osprey and other reference images with Heitairoi wearing purple clothes. The only change to the original is newer face and purple colour of cloth, as well as different (though not neccesarily cooler) colour combination for cape, which I just found being more fitting to general colouristics as well as ordinary, "plain" heitairoi cape. I didn't know it was ahistorical, but that's kind of the details one could easily forgot about.

2) For Heitairoi, only change is pteryges finish and face.

3) Pergamon Royal Hypaspists look less elaborate than most of AOR Epilektoi hoplites. They are described as the wealthiest citzens and practically royal guard, and for that description original outfit was particulary- well- unfit I just maaay have oversexied them, a bit But I had to work with limits the old model gave me, and with goal of matching Macedon Hypaspists in making expressive, rich texture.

4) Thoarakitai Argyraspides aren't changed much. They only got a newer scale texture and iron helmet.

5) Nakharars also underwent only minor changes, including newer textures of scale armour and chainmal. Plus prettier, but still simple and modest cape.

6) Now, when it comes to Seleucid and Pergamon Hellenic Cathaphracts... ummm.... well...
MAYBE I have oversexied them. But hey, at least for Seleucid ones I based my design on resource images, from Osprey I believe... and I haven't gone much further than their portrayal in these illustrations.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For Pergamon, it is entirely artistic license unfortunately

For my defence, I had to deal with the fact that Hellenic Cathaphracts are both general bodyguards and ordinary units

But hey, I think that Seleucid Cathaphracts turned out great. Especially their facemasks look much better than old ones

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I have also re-made Armenian Bodyguard. And I know what you'd say about the bandings...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The emblem on their leather vests is actual emblem of armenian dynasty of the contemporary era And nothing has been oversexed I hope
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No significant changes were made to the thureophori other than giving them red tunic (which can still be changed). Still, it was a modification purely for personal uses which I decided to release nontheless. I think the general complains about Thureophori are more about the quality of the model compared to the more recent ones. All have the same, rigid head and helmet, and crude body combined with flat shield (boss of the shield is a texture, not a part of 3d model). Shield texture could remain the same, after being adjusted to more detailed shield, for example the one Machairophoroi use.

[Visarion]

very nice intel! I'm amazed by your skills... nonetheless I can't help wondering how your Pergamese Cataphracts would look with a golden helmet or a golden mask and/or some golden lines/decorations on the helmet... I say that if you start playing with two colurs at least do a complete job! of course I may be wrong!

[intel]

Thanks, but really all I am doing is more or less recycling tone's/pacco's/leif's textures and applying them instead of the old ones

[Visarion]

Thanks, but really all I am doing is more or less recycling tone's/pacco's/leif's textures and applying them instead of the old ones

your just trying to be modest... those Selucid Hellenic Cataphracts speak for themselves!

[Drtad]

I think they're pretty good! I really like the Macedonian bodyguard cavalry...

Personally I like oversexed stuff, but maybe that's because I'm a teenager. ...just kidding. I crack myself up.

As long as the units have some sort of historical/osprey/etc pics to back them up, I think it's all good. I approve of the new Armenian bodyguard, though I'm a little bit apprehensive about using that particular dynastic symbol since it didn't appear until the Artaxiads overthrew the starting dynasty during RS (Orontids). It's unfortunate that the records about them have been mostly destroyed. :/ That said, I think it's good.

EDIT: I know it says I edited post 13, intel, but I didn't change anything. I just accidentally clicked the 'edit post' button.

[tone]

With regard to the Hiera Ile cloak, the guy who gave us the information has a PhD in Macedonian history so I'd rather keep that particularly if this is released as something official.

I wasn't saying things have been sexed up yet, I'm just saying beware the fans who will try and make you do things just because they might look good.

With regard to the banding, yes the one on the armenian bodyguard there are two issues as you know:

1) The armour needs to be inverted so that the shadows make sense (at the moment the shadows will be above the overlapping bands rather than below which makes no sense visually)

2) Basically what you have to do with those band textures is try and help the game engine make it look like they're circular hoops. The legs have 8 sides to them (like octagonal cylinders) so you have to try and brighten the middles of the sides and darken the angles so the eye is tricked into seeing them as rounded objects rather than angular - does that make sense?

But great work so far.....they look very nice - the Seleucid cataphracts in particularly look much nicer now than before. I'm just trying to give some tips for improving your skills and making some observations.

[Visarion]

you are very altruistic tone! love your character! and yes units should be historical accurate too...

[dvk901]

Also, I might add that with the except of the model used for the equipment handlers (greek_peasant) and maybe a slinger model, there ARE no vanilla anythings in RS2. The horses were all based on Pinarus models (I think), or were new.