Horsemen Of The Steppe

[Eisberg]

About Rawadids&Shirvan the thing is that:
1. Rawadids in 1003 and in the next years seems to be much stronger then Shirvanshahs.
2. Rawadids in 1003y controlled larger territory which can be represented by two provinces. Shirvanshah domain was a small one - suitable for just one province which isn't enough.
3. Rawadids are situated in better spot then Shirvanshahs, they don't block Alans/Khazars/Georgians - so for gameplay reason Rawadids are better choice.

But I'm still opened for suggestions, the discussion about Azerbaijan faction is not closed. What I can declare 100% certain is that in HotS there is one faction slot reserved for a faction of Azerbaijan area. Candidats for that slot are three: Rawadids, Shaddadids, Shirvanshahs.

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Well in order to be able to bring some logical argumentation, I need to borrow Derbendnameh and Some of Minorsky books about the region ,from the library .. this will need a new proper research !!!
But already now I can suggest to do small Map Manipulation like this one -:

• Eliminate Ganja and Add Baku instead !
• This would save the same number of cities!
• In order Baku and Shamakhi not to be too close to each other, I moved Shamakhi a bit towards west, which is still historically not false because city of Shamakhi was destroyed (conquer, earthquakes etc ) and rebuiled in radius of ca. 40 kilometers many times during the history! so the Location of Shamakhi in 1000 A.D. is not the same as now !!!

What do you say ?

[Atabeg]

About ADharbaijan !!
This is not an Older name of the land , this is an Arabic missspelling of persian NAME !
آذربایجان
This Letter is written like DH in Arabic and like Z in Persian!
So it travelled through the wrong transliteration from Arabic into other languages...
Locals never called it Adharbaijan, it was Always Azerbaijan.

Yess the population of Azerbaijan of those times was dominantly Iranic and not Turkic !!! even during the Seljuks and Ilkhans Iranians were majority there...
But the name Azeri is everything else than a new Term from a Soviet Era!
Azeri is the name of the Iranian Language, spoken in Azerbaijan in the medieval, Iranic Azerbayjanis called them self Azeri.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Azari_language
If you dont like Wiki as a quick info, read: Lazard - " Rise of New Persian Language"
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About Kurds in Maragha and Tebriz
Kurdistan, or a land were the absolut majority of population are Kurds is all around south Azerbaijan.
30 kilometers west from Urmiya and youre among them.
60 km south from Maraggeh and youre in the same situation !
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I an new concept I really do not Like the name Emirate of Azerbaijan, it should be Rawadids!
And I really dont like the presense of Rawadids if we can pick Shirvan Shahdom !
Shirvan Shahs had a huge cultural herittage on those lands!
Rawadids simply just been there...
And once more the most long existant Muslim state EVER !!!
Shirvan Shahdom existed over 1000 years
+ I really like the presence of Khazar Khaganate!
So If you would Put Shirvan instead of Rawadids I would vote for it !

About Seljuks, Dudes the Title is not a problem !
Call a Faction " SELJUQS", and the rulling title Yaghbu, untill they conquer Hamadan or so, then this conquest will trigger the Title of Sultan... isnt this a solution ?

+ Like Buyyids too !

That is not true, during the period of Ilkhans Azerbaijan was already majority Turkic land. About Seljuqs, you cannot say anything for sure. We do know that there was already a large Turkic settlement by that time. For instance we do know that Nizami Ganjavi married a Qipchaq from Azerbaijan.

Can you tell me what our forefathers in 1918 called themselves? Even now in constitution of Azerbaijan there is nothing as Azeri. There is Azerbaijani. In constitution of 1918 Azerbaijan Republic, the ethnic name was Azerbaijani Turk and language Turkish.

You probably do know better than me that the usage Azeri/Azerbaijani instead of Turk and Turkish did not happen before 1930.

This thread is not for such discussions, however, your words really surprised me.

Your link by the way, are simple a theory, that supposedly "Azari" language existed, non-Turkic, it was invented by a single man, Ahmad Kasravi and is not proven in any way.

[Silesian_Noble]

Well from what I read I got the feeling that Ganja was extremely developed and important settlement in the area, more important then Baku in 1003y (Baku came to importance later - when Shamakha was destroyed from eartquake the captal of Shirvanshahs was moved to Baku). Ganja represents the very important province of Arran - without it that area would have no representation... Also Rawadids were activ in those years, they soon conquered Ardebil, fought many heavy wars with Georgians and Armenia (captured Dvin for a while in late Xc), conquered south Azerbaijan when Sallarids of Rayy collapsed from Ghaznavids. Have a look at this map of 1000y: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...000_map_de.png - Rawadids domain was a few times larger then the one of Shirvanshahs! According to this picture Rawadids should start with also Ardebil. In years 1020-1040 Rawadids crushed a few invasions of Oghuz from the East. What was Shirvanshahs ahievments in that period, in comparison to those of Rawadids? I can feel you like Shirvanshahs more but objectivly in 1003y Rawadids seems to be much stronger, larger and more influencial. Who knows how would they developed if not the growing power of the Seljuks... Also it should be noted down that Rawadid famous ruler - Vahsūdān was the first Azerbaijan ruller who recruited Oghuz in his army - this is how the Turkic tribes settled on this land. That is a fact of extreme importance for the history of Azerbaijan - isn't that still enough to make Rawadids a faction in HotS for Azeri supporters?

From Irranica:

After then, authority in the province passed largely to the rival power of the Rawwadids of Tabrīz, descendants of the Azdī Arabs who had been allotted Tabrīz in early ʿAbbasid times (see above), but by now apparently largely Kurdicized, doubtless through the process of intermarriage. Abu’l-Hayjāʾ Ḥosayn b. Moḥammad (d. 378/988-89) and his son Mamlān or Moḥammad (d. 393/1001) and their descendants pushed the Mosaferids back into their original homeland of Daylam, and ruled the whole of Azerbaijan from Tabrīz, thus bringing that town into prominence for the first time in Islam. Much of their time was spent combatting the resurgent forces of the Christian rulers of Armenia and Georgia, until in the reign of Abū Manṣūr Vahsūdān b. Mamlān (416-51/1025-59) a new element appeared in the politics of Azerbaijan which was to mark a decisive change in the ethnic complexion of the province, namely the Oḡuz or Ḡuzz Turks (see Madelung, op. cit., pp. 236-37; Kasrawī, op. cit., pp. 130-45; V. Minorsky, Studies in Caucasian History, London, 1953, pp. 114-16; Bosworth, op. cit., pp. 88-89).

Was Qazvin considered as Azerbaijan land in that time? If yes - then probably Rawadids should start with as many as for provinces...

[ALFAJI]

why dont you add the ?
i see them very nice to be added in that time and in 1003 did the buyids rule bagdad ?

[Silesian_Noble]

why dont you add the ?

Add what?

i see them very nice to be added in that time and in 1003 did the buyids rule bagdad ?

I think yes, Buyids did rule Bagdad in 1003, well at least books say so Who else could rule it?

[ALFAJI]

Add what?

I think yes, Buyids did rule Bagdad in 1003, well at least books say so Who else could rule it?

i meant Qarmatians and btw why don't we make a fast start for the mod by making a islamic conquest of Turkestan and the steppes ?

including the ummayads and the turkish factions like gokturks and turgesh and the romans and khazar ?

[Silesian_Noble]

i meant Qarmatians

Qarmatians... yes indeed, they would be incredible interesting faction, but... not in HotS. The new HotS concept which will probably be valid for the future development (see the pool results) means that the southern lands of the map will be cut and saved provinces invested in other part of the map. The cut part of the map includes Qarmatian centre... Then Arabic factions/cultures are least important in HotS, but don't get me wrong here. I do know that Arabic input in the world history was great but in the steppic theme they are geographically located outside the scope and the nomads rarely dealt with them. Then I already reached the limit of religions and wouldn't be able to add another one for Qarmathians. Still there are planned two Arabic factions in HotS (Fatimids and Hamdanids) which taking into consideration the steppic scope of the mod is really fair enough. Also HotS concept is constructed in such manner in order not to cover Broken Crescent targets (both mods are settled on similar maps range). And Broken Crescent is a mod focused on the Islamic world and Arabic culture is among the prime targets of BC. Anyway I do know you are great supporter of Arabic culture and I really hope that HotS won't loose your support.

[ALFAJI]

ok as you want but i meant that we replace it withe uqilids and the Hamdanids fall in 1003 so its not that important in that time
and i said that Qarmatians coz there a like a invasion faction to the abbasids and the fatimds and you didnt tell me did you like the 8th century hots idea as a start for it ?

[Silesian_Noble]

ok as you want but i meant that we replace it withe uqilids and the Hamdanids fall in 1003 so its not that important in that time

My mistake, of course - there are Uqylids, not Hamdanids. But an interesting thing - Rus2 mod starts in 1015y and it has Hamdanids...

and i said that Qarmatians coz there a like a invasion faction to the abbasids and the fatimds and you didnt tell me did you like the 8th century hots idea as a start for it ?

Yeah I know your Arabian mod concept settled in VIIIc This is much harder mod to do, first because there are no other mods from that timeframe/area so you would have to do all the stuff by yourself and second the sources for that time frame are much smaller. You would need a big team and plenty time to make such mod. While with HotS timeframe and area I may have up to 75% 2d/3d stuff done - they are in other mods and HotS has been granted permissions from most of them. This is huge relief in development

[ALFAJI]

My mistake, of course - there are Uqylids, not Hamdanids. But an interesting thing - Rus2 mod starts in 1015y and it has Hamdanids...


Yeah I know your Arabian mod concept settled in VIIIc This is much harder mod to do, first because there are no other mods from that timeframe/area so you would have to do all the stuff by yourself and second the sources for that time frame are much smaller. You would need a big team and plenty time to make such mod. While with HotS timeframe and area I may have up to 75% 2d/3d stuff done - they are in other mods and HotS has been granted permissions from most of them. This is huge relief in development

ok then as you see

[Silesian_Noble]

OK guys, the poll result is clear - the new HotS concept settled in a larger time frame and starting earlier - in 1003y got more supporters. I'm really glad I have already started some map preparation in order to adjust it into new conditions. I have successfully cut the map slightly from the south and I'm relocating saved provinces. Also I have made considerable research about 1003y. I hope to close the stage of map settling into earlier starting date in this year and therefore my target is to start scripting with the new year beginning. If there are some good fellows who want to help - just PM me

[karaislam]

what is the situation of the mod?

i see clearly best map and best geografy there.there are many unknown factions.this mod can give very good history lesson.

[Silesian_Noble]

what is the situation of the mod?

Right now I'm working on new factions scripts - I'm adding new faction slots.

Also I'm tring to figure cultural division. Here are some concepts I'm considering:

Cultures:

1. Persian (Samanids, Khwarezm, Ghur, Buyids)
2. Turkic (Pecheneg, Qipchak, Khazars, Kimek, Kara Khanids, Oghuz, Seljuks, Volga-Bulgars, Bashkirs)
3. Arabic (Fatimids, Uqaylids)
note: not sure where should I place Rawadids, whether to Persian or Arabic group.

variant 1:
4. GreekoEuropean (ERE, Georgia, Alania, Rus)
5. Western European (Hungary, Crusaders)
6. Eastern Asiatic (Uighurs, Kara Khitans, Naimans, Kyrgyz, Shahi, Ghaznavids)
7. Northern (Taiga, Perm)

variant 2:
4. European (ERE, Georgia, Alania, Rus, Hungary, Crusaders)
5. Northern (Taiga, Perm)
6. Eastern Asiatic (Uighurs, Kara Khitans, Naimans, Kyrgyz)
7. Indian (Ghaznavids, Shahi).

variant 3:
4. GreekoEuropean (ERE, Georgia, Alania, Rus, Perm)
5. Western European (Hungary, Crusaders)
6. Eastern Asiatic (Uighurs, Kara Khitans, Naimans, Kyrgyz)
7. Indian (Ghaznavids, Shahi).
<Taiga into Turkic group>

The issue of - settled / half settled / nomadic - faction type within Turkic and partially GreekoEuropean (Alania) and Western European (Hungary) groups will be solved not via culture division but via tech tree. I mean the vanilla city-castle division will be replaced by settled-nomadic one.

i see clearly best map and best geografy there.there are many unknown factions.this mod can give very good history lesson.

Well yes and this is why I'm surprised that the Turkish community, which you Karaislam represents, lost interest in HotS project after it switched to earlier timeframe. I guess the smaller in 1003y Seljuk state is not so good for Turks as strong Seljuks from 1040y...

[nurhak]

Right now I'm working on new factions scripts - I'm adding new faction slots.

Also I'm tring to figure cultural division. Here are some concepts I'm considering:

Cultures:

1. Persian (Samanids, Khwarezm, Ghur, Buyids)
2. Turkic (Pecheneg, Qipchak, Khazars, Kimek, Kara Khanids, Oghuz, Seljuks, Volga-Bulgars, Bashkirs)
3. Arabic (Fatimids, Uqaylids)
note: not sure where should I place Rawadids, whether to Persian or Arabic group.

variant 1:
4. GreekoEuropean (ERE, Georgia, Alania, Rus)
5. Western European (Hungary, Crusaders)
6. Eastern Asiatic (Uighurs, Kara Khitans, Naimans, Kyrgyz, Shahi, Ghaznavids)
7. Northern (Taiga, Perm)

variant 2:
4. European (ERE, Georgia, Alania, Rus, Hungary, Crusaders)
5. Northern (Taiga, Perm)
6. Eastern Asiatic (Uighurs, Kara Khitans, Naimans, Kyrgyz)
7. Indian (Ghaznavids, Shahi).

variant 3:
4. GreekoEuropean (ERE, Georgia, Alania, Rus, Perm)
5. Western European (Hungary, Crusaders)
6. Eastern Asiatic (Uighurs, Kara Khitans, Naimans, Kyrgyz)
7. Indian (Ghaznavids, Shahi).
<Taiga into Turkic group>

The issue of - settled / half settled / nomadic - faction type within Turkic and partially GreekoEuropean (Alania) and Western European (Hungary) groups will be solved not via culture division but via tech tree. I mean the vanilla city-castle division will be replaced by settled-nomadic one.


Well yes and this is why I'm surprised that the Turkish community, which you Karaislam represents, lost interest in HotS project after it switched to earlier timeframe. I guess the smaller in 1003y Seljuk state is not so good for Turks as strong Seljuks from 1040y...

cant you just call eastern asiatic something like Turkic or Turco Mongol

[karaislam]

i didnt lost interest indeed.as i mentioned before this is the best map i ve ever seen.there would be excellent campaign in this map.u can add me in the team list

as
2d artist,3d artist,unit creator,skinner,animations and unit integrator.except map and script u can write all.

[Ixor_Drakar]

Variant 3 seems the best to me since putting all the European factions in the same culture would seem off. Plus India has to have one too.

[ilmrik]

I'm also still up to help scripting, my specialty is the campaign script tough, so let me know if you have anything you want for it. I'll have time to develop it depending on how much grunt work your idea's will require ( that can be outsourced I hope ).

Do you have an idea of what kind of features you're looking for? I imagine their was quite a lot of migrating going on back then so maybe we can draft some ideas of how to include the feel of all those migrations?

[molashkre]

I agree Variant 2,it contains every culture,most of all,I think.

[Silesian_Noble]

I'm also still up to help scripting, my specialty is the campaign script tough, so let me know if you have anything you want for it. I'll have time to develop it depending on how much grunt work your idea's will require ( that can be outsourced I hope ).

Do you have an idea of what kind of features you're looking for? I imagine their was quite a lot of migrating going on back then so maybe we can draft some ideas of how to include the feel of all those migrations?

It is nice to know you are still around Well I would like for each faction different gameplay and I plan several nice scripts for different factions. Some of them already appeared in my head - they should be not complicated but will do the gameplay more unique for certain factions. I will contact with you as soon as I finish coding in all the factions.

cant you just call eastern asiatic something like Turkic or Turco Mongol

There is already culture type called Turkic. Turco Mongol is not bad option, but it doesn't reveal a fact that the culture was also under Chinese influence. So the proper name should be like Turco-Mongolo-Chinese which is too complicated - I prefer simpler version Eastern Asiatic Also this is only technical term, it should not be visible during game.

i didnt lost interest indeed.as i mentioned before this is the best map i ve ever seen.there would be excellent campaign in this map.u can add me in the team list
as
2d artist,3d artist,unit creator,skinner,animations and unit integrator.except map and script u can write all.

You have once declared your help for HotS and... you couldn't find time to help back then - instead you started your own steppic project called Steppe Hordes. I'm sorry but you lost my trust.

[karaislam]

silesian

it was you without any reason deleting my name from the hots team place.u didnt warn or communicate me even.i already had said u that my vga was broken in that time and i was not able to install m2tw on my pc.thought i bought new one later.u are also talking about trust or other important things which u dont have any clue.dont do it.

even so i ve offered my help to u cos this map and factions too good and there is no any help from modders.
i hope u can finish this mod and we can play it.good luck.