Horsemen Of The Steppe

[Boztorgai_Khan]

The first picture of 7heads snake looks very interesting - do you know where is it from? I think it would be good choice for Kimek CoA. Same for wolf head as CoA of two kin factions of Qumans and Qipchaks.

About the Tamga of Pecheneg - it looks very modest, I'm not sure whether this symbol is the best choice for Pecheneg CoA. I think we should investigate what CoA got Pecheneg in other mods, like Rus2 or TGC.

And about claim that Qumans and Qipchaks are the same, I can compare them to Saxons and Bavarians - some may say they are the same - Germans, but in fact they were different tribes with distinct traditions.

I have recently started work on map heights, I hope I will be soon ready to show you some screenshots of the map progress.

That picture with 7-head Snake:

http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/35560

http://www.swaziplace.com/whatshappe...septstory.html

Thats good news to know then Coa's for 3 factions ( Kimäks, Cumans and Kipchaks ) are finished. Can we stop with searching for that coa's.

That Tamga is the True Tamga of the Pechenegs. What use the Guys from Rus2 and TGC's then ?
Can you show that Pecheneg Coa ?

I posted you Volga Bulgars Family Tree too check your PM

I understand you mate But mostly guys here want see your Theory's / Sources what you have. Maybe can you posted here or send me in a PM ??? Then can we check your Theory's about that Cumans and Kipchaks were not same is.

[Silesian_Noble]

The work on map heights is going nicely forward. I hope to post some screens soon

I understand you mate But mostly guys here want see your Theory's / Sources what you have. Maybe can you posted here or send me in a PM ??? Then can we check your Theory's about that Cumans and Kipchaks were not same is.

My source is "History of civilizations of CENTRAL ASIA" Volume IV, UNESCO publishing.

-qus=qift

But the wiki site you linked says clearly, that Qus replaced Qift as the major trade center only in XIIIc. HotS project ends in early XIIIc so in this case Qift is better choice.

-asyut = aythab coz aythab was just a port

It was not just a port. It was a city with a port Also wiki says it was a extremely important trade center and a major stop on the muslim pilgrims route.

--anbar = annah

Another problematic change as this would cause a great settlement density around Bagdad and a huge empty hole along Euphrates.

-sinjar=tayma
and sinjar is the most important coz its one of the major furati region citys and eom faction history in that region

Such change would be not good for the gameplay too. Both those regions are located in different areas. If I remove Tayma, then Medina would be much isolated and this would be not good (it would be not very useful for Fatimids in that case). Also I'm not sure I want another region for Emirate of Mosul (they already have been given Samarra recently). I mean Abbasids/Buyid will be busy with Seljuks, Fatimids will be busy with ERE plus will be heavily hit by the Crusade about 100 turns after start (2turns = 1 year). I think 4 provinces for Mosul are enough especialy when they have lots of nice opportunies to expand at the expense of rebells (north to Fayd/Al Ahsa, west to Raqqa/Edessa, north to Tabriz/Ardebil/Dvin) and their neighbours will be busy with other foes.

[tibu17]

The first picture of 7heads snake looks very interesting - do you know where is it from? I think it would be good choice for Kimek CoA. Same for wolf head as CoA of two kin factions of Qumans and Qipchaks.

About the Tamga of Pecheneg - it looks very modest, I'm not sure whether this symbol is the best choice for Pecheneg CoA. I think we should investigate what CoA got Pecheneg in other mods, like Rus2 or TGC.

And about claim that Qumans and Qipchaks are the same, I can compare them to Saxons and Bavarians - some may say they are the same - Germans, but in fact they were different tribes with distinct traditions.

I have recently started work on map heights, I hope I will be soon ready to show you some screenshots of the map progress.

This is idea is maybe true,because the cumans are mixed with goths and slav peoples.But pechenges are maybe mixed with religious peoples.
Then kipchaks are mixed other altaic people not khwarezm people or slav or germanic people.
I think the mod is will be used Basielia Total War CoA for pechenges.

[Tureuki]

isn't that tamgha of the Oghuz Pecheneg tribe ? I think original Pecheneg tribe should be use a different CoA

[Boztorgai_Khan]

isn't that tamgha of the Oghuz Pecheneg tribe ? I think original Pecheneg tribe should be use a different CoA

Yes, And Have You Then That ? Show What's ?

[Tureuki]

Good question

[Boztorgai_Khan]

Good question

Hehe, I Research it then I hope that i can find it the True Good Coa for Pecheneg Khanate or Silesian_Noble use What from other Mods.

[tibu17]

Boz pechenges CoA's are good from basielia total war......

[ALFAJI]

i'm back

sn i see that this is the final suggestion after a bit of reserch

-qus=qift
-asyut = aythab coz aythab was just a port
-anbar = annah
-sinjar=tayma
and sinjar is the most important coz its one of the major furati region citys and eom faction history in that region


and i hope you accept them

[ALFAJI]

as you see but i told you the important change in the map for the mosel faction is to add sinjar

[wudang_clown]

Could we start a discussion about cultures in this mod?

There can be only seven (7) cultures, so it should be decided carefully which factions to assigned to which culture.

Something for a start:

• Christian: Roman Empire, Kingdom of Hungary, G.P. of Kiev, P. of Great Perm, Kingdom of Georgia, Kingdom of Alania
• Arabic: Caliphate of the Fatimids, Amirate of Mosul, Amirate of Arran, Caliphate of the Abbasids
• Persian(-influenced): Shahdom of Khwarezm, Sultanate of the Ghurids, Sultanate of the Ghaznavids - and I'm not sure about Seljuks in 1040...
• Western Turkic: Pechengs, Qumans, Volga Bulgars, Bashkirs, Oghuz, Seljuks (?)
• Eastern Turkic: Qipchaks, Western and Eastern Qarakhanids, Uyghurs, Kimaks, Kirgiz

I'm not sure about Khanate of Taiga. Kashmir would be rather of Hindu culture and Guge of Tibetan.

Any ideas?

[Silesian_Noble]

That is a good start on the Cultures issue, thank you Wudang. I think it would be very good if we also list all the features that are bounded with the culture choice. To be honest I'm not completely sure what are the consequences for a faction when signed into certain culture. My guesses are:
- general faces
- strat map settlements icons
- strat map figures
- tech tree?
- what else?

Another note is that we have already swapped Emirate of Arran with Shahdom of Shirvan. Also I'm thinking about one more change with faction slot, but will present more details later.

Back to the culture list, I was thinking about something like:
1. Orthodox-Roman (Eastern Romans, Georgia, Alania)
2. Catholic (Hungary, Crusade)
3. Northern/Slavic-Ugro-Finnish (Kiev, Great Perm, Taiga?)
4. Arabic (Fatimids, Mosul, Abbasids, not sure with Shirvan)
5. Steppic/or Nomadic Turkish/or maybe Northern Turkish (Pecheneg, Qumans, Bashkirs, Volga-Bulgaria?, Qipchaks, Oghuz, Kimek, Kyrgyz, Kara Khitan)
6. Persian/or Settled Turkish/ or maybe southern Turkish (Khwarezm, Eastern Qarakhanids, Western Qarakhanids, Uighurs, Seljuks?, Ghaznavids, Ghurids)
7. Tibetan/Himalayan? (Guge, Kashmir)

[wudang_clown]

Discussion about ethnic origins of Bulgars and Volga Bulgars is undoubtedly interesting, but by prolonging it we are not closer determining what cultures to include in HotS.

There will be 30 factions and only 7 cultures. There is no way, given cultural diversity of those factions, to introduce 100% accurate cultural division. I think we have to get used to the fact that some factions will be assigned to cultures they actually don't quite fit to for that reason or another.

I understand that Bulgars' Turkic origin may be very problematic, but what possibilities of determining the truth we have, really? I mean, should we start a separate historical research right now and prolong the discussion until forever?

If Volga Bulgars' nobility was Turkic, then the faction should be Turkic, in my opinion, because player is managing ruling family, not whole society. Notice that what we can really move on the strat map are mainly characters, family members, nobility. The rest - craftsmen, peasantry, etc. are only numbers on settlement scroll.

I think that culture of ruling family should be primary one, and cultural elements of any other ethnicity may be represented via UI's, unit_info pictures, icons, music, event pictures, etc.

Back to the culture list, I was thinking about something like:
1. Orthodox-Roman (Eastern Romans, Georgia, Alania)
2. Catholic (Hungary, Crusade)
3. Northern/Slavic-Ugro-Finnish (Kiev, Great Perm, Taiga?)

I'm not really sure about this division - why Kiev isn't in Orthodox group? I think it's culturally closer to Constantinople than to that Taiga faction?

[NikeBG]

If Volga Bulgars' nobility was Turkic, then the faction should be Turkic, in my opinion, because player is managing ruling family, not whole society. Notice that what we can really move on the strat map are mainly characters, family members, nobility. The rest - craftsmen, peasantry, etc. are only numbers on settlement scroll.[/FONT]

I agree. Except that the Volga Bulgar nobility was heavily Persianized and the faction fits better with the "Persian/settled Turkic" (btw, Turkish and Turkic are two very different things, I hope SN realizes it and that's just a typo) rather than "nomadic Turkic".

[Atabeg]

Back to the culture list, I was thinking about something like:
1. Orthodox-Roman (Eastern Romans, Georgia, Alania)
2. Catholic (Hungary, Crusade)
3. Northern/Slavic-Ugro-Finnish (Kiev, Great Perm, Taiga?)
4. Arabic (Fatimids, Mosul, Abbasids, not sure with Shirvan)
5. Steppic/or Nomadic Turkish/or maybe Northern Turkish (Pecheneg, Qumans, Bashkirs, Volga-Bulgaria?, Qipchaks, Oghuz, Kimek, Kyrgyz, Kara Khitan)
6. Persian/or Settled Turkish/ or maybe southern Turkish (Khwarezm, Eastern Qarakhanids, Western Qarakhanids, Uighurs, Seljuks?, Ghaznavids, Ghurids)
7. Tibetan/Himalayan? (Guge, Kashmir)

There were 3 Shirvanshah dynasties throughout its existence.

Mazyadids, Kasranids and Darbandis (Derbent). Mazyadids had more of Arabic culture, Kasranids adopted Persian culture while Darbandis had more of Turkic influence evident in names of the rulers (some of the rulers had "Beg" added to their names).

Mazyadids ruled in 779-1027, Kasranids ruled in 1027-1382 and Darbandis in 1382-1538.

Taking into account that this mod starts in 1040, the ruling dynasty would be the Kasranids, I.E dominated by Persian culture.

[Tureuki]

Turco-İslamic(Influenced from the İslamic cultures) or may be Turco-Persian

[NikeBG]

Volga Bulgaria isn't nomadic, at least not by 1040. At that time it was already a major mercantile state, trading with both Far East and West.

[tibu17]

Volga Bulgaria isn't nomadic, at least not by 1040. At that time it was already a major mercantile state, trading with both Far East and West.

But Northern Turkish is true for Volga Bulgars.

[Dark Attila]

Silesian_Noble,

Congrats on what looks to be like a great Mod in the making. I've always wanted to be able to play a campaign with the various 'Steppe Warriors' of Eurasia!

[NikeBG]

Partially. They had considerable Persian and Arabic influence in terms of language and literature, while the main Turkic influence appeared after the Mongol conquest (they had Turkic and Finno-Ugrian tribes living there even before though).