What's up with the battles

[xjlxking]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something but the battles in XGM seem to be a bit weird. I installed the mod with BI Exe and made sure that there is a 1 hit point system. Still, the fighting between units take forever, as if they still have too much health. Ranged units do nice damage, but calvary seems to have been hit by a nerf stick. I charge over and over again and nothing. Most units have a nice moral that they don't panic or even get damage.

IS it just me who feels as if Calvary lost their shine in the game?

[Celestial Oblivion]

I also have the one hit point system and cavalry feels as powerful as they have ever been (and they say RTW had the most powerful cavalry in all the games). What kind of cavalry are you using, some of the light cavalry are duel skirmisher/light cavalry and don't have a very high charge bonus. If you are having this problem with Cataphracts and Companions then something might be wrong. Also make sure you are charging from far enough away, cavalry have to run a certain distance before the charge bonus gets applied (I don't know if that distance was changed in XGM, but most of them do suck without that bonus).

All units in XGM do have higher moral (there are no units that the game calls "low morale" anymore) so you have to work harder to cause mass routes. I haven't played regular in a while but the battles don't seem much longer to me on 1 hit point.

[xjlxking]

I try to charge a a nice distance, but not too far, as I am usually just trying to to the point quickly. I'll try to keep that in mind. I used whatever calvary I can as they have always been good to have to attack the flank of any units. But in XGM they feel weaker, or their role might have changed to just shock troopers.

Another problem is that almost every unit is "heavy". I don't know the difference between the Heavy or Light type of units, but I remember, in Vanilla, there wasn't too many heavy.

[Celestial Oblivion]

I try to charge a a nice distance, but not too far, as I am usually just trying to to the point quickly. I'll try to keep that in mind. I used whatever calvary I can as they have always been good to have to attack the flank of any units. But in XGM they feel weaker, or their role might have changed to just shock troopers.

Another problem is that almost every unit is "heavy". I don't know the difference between the Heavy or Light type of units, but I remember, in Vanilla, there wasn't too many heavy.

Try a custom battle with "real" heavy cavalry (Companions, Cataphracts, Sacred Band Cavalry etc.) and see if that's any better. If the cavalry unit doesn't have a charge value of above 10 its probably not meant to be a melee cavalry unit (I think the default "medium" cavalry is around 14).

Most non-militia do use the heavy weapon type in XGM (including Javelins), but that doesn't mean they are heavy units. Even if they have a heavy weapon type if the tooltip says "Light infantry"/"Skirmisher" etc.) that's what they'll fight as. Armor values also work for most "civilized" units, if its above six they are probably suited for protracted melee (though actual heavy infantry do better than spearmen against infantry and vice versa for cavalry).

[Elvis]

Part of the "cavalry nerf" is the high morale in XGM. In vanilla, you could just swamp any unit with a few units of cav + general, and they would rout.
Plus, the majority of units in XGM carry spears, so even a few seconds in melee can murder your cav.

Especially early in the campaign with only light cav available, relying on charges might not be the best option. Even the Prodomoi with their good charge bonus are nowhere near as effective as vanillas Light Lancers.

[Hurlbut]

I don't have any problem with using Light cavalry. You only use them when the enemy's pinned down and being beaten up by your infantry line, so their charges will rout them. You just have to charge them. When the cavalry stop moving in their charge, pull them out and repeat. You'll be able to figure out what morale status to keep an eye out for on an enemy unit and time it so your last charge will rout that unit.

[Elvis]

I don't have any problem with using Light cavalry. You only use them when the enemy's pinned down and being beaten up by your infantry line, so their charges will rout them. You just have to charge them. When the cavalry stop moving in their charge, pull them out and repeat. You'll be able to figure out what morale status to keep an eye out for on an enemy unit and time it so your last charge will rout that unit.

Well, that just confirms what i said. Compared to vanilla (especially lancers) you need to be a lot more careful when to charge (=fewer charges generally).
And you need to charge one unit several times to get the same effect you got in vanilla with only one charge.
Especially when the enemy is not "being beaten up by your infantry" but instead would win the inf-fight. Which happens quite regularly against romans.

[piranha45]

I play with 2hp setting. During slow moments, there's always the triple-speed battle option.

[xjlxking]

another thing i noticed, if you are charging head on into an enemy battalion who is also face your charge direction/angle, most of you cavalry with stop after maybe 5-10 people being trampled(not dead)

[Hurlbut]

Elvis, you have to understand that in ancient times and even medieval times, cavalry cannot beat infantry units standing firmly and together on their own. Take for example; the roman expeditions to Persia, those that were defeated was because they did not held their line together (through luring units away or attacking the supply wagons).

The only unit type you could possibly rout in a single charge is the skirmish troop providing they don't have added morale bonus (from buildings when they were trained and from having a general or eagle nearby). And it's an exception that prove the rule. Skirmishers cannot withstand cavalry generally because they can't carry respectable armor for that would slow them down. Basically their Achilles' heel is the lack of staying power for they were meant to harass the line.

And the steppe horsemen? They used bows mainly, had mobility on their side, and excellent horses that put the early European horse breeds to shame (endurance, sturdy, strong, can eat in more places). They're also no fools to combat, they know it's not worth the risk to charge a solid infantry line like a sterotypical Knight charge. If they can, they would try to break up the infantry through various means like peppering them with arrows, faking them out with 'flee from them' and then turn on the pursuers that left their safe solid formation and so forth.

This is how cavalry beat the infantry; when the infantry is in disarray, when the infantry is on move (and not in formation standing together to present a solid wall), and when the infantry is surprised.


That's why we love XGM. It injected a degree of realism into it, gave us variety in units, and kept it playability for us.

[Elvis]

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not criticizing XGM, i'm currently playing and loving it.
Was just explaining the changed conditions in XGM which make cavalry less effective. Cav in vanilla was a bit ridiculous anyway, because you could defeat any AI army without pikes or chariots simply by charging lots of cav at them.

I'm well aware that historically, cavalry attacking a solid formation of trained warriors rarely worked. Even medieval knights with better horses and armor would only successfully charge badly trained and averagely equipped troops.

Just not too fond of an exaggerated emphasis on realistically weak cavalry, because playability and sheer fun tends to suffer from that. Controlling cav and striking decisive blows is just a more fun then watching infantry slowly munch their way through the enemy formation.
Plus, in terms of realism, XGM doesn't compare with RTR or EB anyway. Which is why i play XGM and not the others. :-)

PS: Another thing to keep in mind: If the cav stays in melee a few seconds after a charge into the back of the enemy, the morale effect is higher. Because not only does the enemy suffer from the "getting charged" modifier, but also from the "being sourrounded" modifier. Not suggested with light cav, though.

[Hurlbut]

I did said a "degree" of realism. It's just enough that it's interesting and give us a nice historical flavor that doesn't have a slightly bad aftertaste like vanilla RTW

[Unknown Soldier]

My fave Cavalry Charge was 2 units of Parthian Cataphracts Rolling down a hill full tilt into a moving formation of rebel eastern spearmen - Total carnage - bodies flying everywhere - the dead were spread out of a lage area - 5x that occupied by the spear unit....80% casualties from the shock of impact - 2 cataphracts died in total....brutal.

[xjlxking]

That's luck. From what I noticed, Light Cavalry usually is meant to round up the enemies routing units and sometimes attack a units thats already losing. Same goes for the heavy Cavalry.

It sucks though, knowing that a heavy Cavalry would lose to a town watch in a sword-fight with out charging.

[Elvis]

My fave Cavalry Charge was 2 units of Parthian Cataphracts Rolling down a hill full tilt into a moving formation of rebel eastern spearmen - Total carnage - bodies flying everywhere - the dead were spread out of a lage area - 5x that occupied by the spear unit....80% casualties from the shock of impact - 2 cataphracts died in total....brutal.

What is suprising is that the cataphracts actually suffered casualties. The encounter really couln't have been any more one-sided. Two units of the (by far) best cav in the game against one unit of probably the worst infantry in the game.

[DimeBagHo]

A few points on cavalry in XGM.

(1) In RTW it is not easy to set up a correct charge. You have to have a decent distance between your cavalry and the target unit, your cavalry has to be in formation and lined up with the target unit, and the target unit has to be pretty much stationary. If you miss any of those requirements then your cavalry won't really charge and the charge bonus won't be applied. In vanilla, cavalry were so over-powered that there was no need to perform correct charges. In fact the charge bonus mechanism was broken in version 1.0 so cavalry stats were balanced without even taking into account the ability to charge.

(2) Cavalry in XGM are weaker than in vanilla, so you have to be more careful about how you use them. However, cavalry units with lances or spears have significantly higher charge bonuses, so you really need to get those charges working correctly to get full value from them.

(3) Most infantry have more mass in XGM which means that charges have somewhat less explosive impact (i.e. bodies flying through the air).

(4) Terrain bonuses are somewhat more significant in XGM. For example, most cavalry units will suffer a significant penalty on scrub, while most light infantry and skirmishers will enjoy a bonus (to identify scrub, look for small bits of vegetation mixed in with the grass).

[Elvis]

Heavy cavalry, used smartly is still powerful enough, i think.
Not too fond of skirmishing cav, because once they run out of javelins, they are pretty much dead weight. And with the 2hp systems, they don't do a whole lot of damage before they run out. Admittedly, i'm no expert when it comes to using skirmish units so that might just be preference.

The only little gripe i have with the cavalry in XGM is that they die quite easily. Even the elite heavy units like Companions will suffer casualties just by charging pinned units in the back or flanks. Even armored generals lose men when charging a half-strenght unit of the most basic peltasts.
Which makes Elite cavalry a bit of a liability. They deplete relatively quickly and chances of retraining them abroad are slim.
And bringing "reserve units" is not an option with the high cost of elite cavalry.
So i find myself using more basic or mercenary cavalry as "throw away-units".

[Hurlbut]

Not unbelievable. If you're just milling around, you can easily be swamped under by a unit with more men than you can shake a stick at.

Mobility is a cavalry's life.

[Unknown Soldier]

I tend to prefer bow/javelin armed cavalry over others

1. Mobility
2. Fire power

Flank and shoot in skirnish mode....

has the effect of the AI commits unit to chase them off - disrupts the battlle line.
or
the AI skirmishing cavalry is tied down and out of the fight.
or
if the AI doesn't react - flanked units get shot up and morale goes down so its easy to break the enemy flank and roll up the line....