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Thread: Debunking the attacks: What a Neo-Con really is.

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  1. #1
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Debunking the attacks: What a Neo-Con really is.

    Neo-Con is a word that is thrown around a lot in politics. Its been a common attack word from the left, and some have even used the Neo- prefix in order to attack other ideas (ex. Neo-facism, Neo-feminism, etc..). What is a Neo-Con really? Well to put it simply a Neo-Con is a person who pushes for the exportation of Democracy. Neo-conservatism is a political theory that the Democrazation of the world would promote world stability and prosperity. That is it, that is all that makes someone a Neo-Con. Neo-Conservatism does not deal with domestic matters, as it is a foreign policy theory, and many Neo-Conservatives are more liberal domestically than Paleo-Conservatives.
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    Conservatives vary from place to place.
    A conservative in America is a liberal in Russia because both are highly pro big business, whereas communists are conservatives in Russia because they seek a return to old ways.





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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    I wholeheartily disagree with Farnan, it is the neo-cons who have pushed for anti-gay marriage bills. It is the neo-cons who have pushed for ID teachings in bio classes, it is the neo-cons who push for anti-abortion legislation, it is the neo-cons who bring the Terri Shiavo's to the government, it is the neo-cons who made the left hate the right even more. The neo-cons are extremists, simple as that
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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    No, that has nothing to do with Neo-Conservatism. Neo-con is used nowadays for just about anything, and as an attack word. Neo-Conservatism simply means a support for a policy urging democratic reform in non-democratic nations. A Neo-con can theoretically support a socialist domestic policy. Most of your examples are those who may support a Neo-con foreign policy, but a conservative domestic policy. Neo-Conservatism = Foreign Policy Theory that is opposite of the Paleo-Conservative Foreign Policy Theory (Isolationism)...
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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    Civitate
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    Except, in reality, the foreign policy of the Bush administration isn't Neo-Con. It's Realpolitik through and through, such as America's explicit support for tyrannical, undemocratic regimes such as Islam Karimov's Uzbekistan. So if they are only concerned with foreign policy, they've failed big-style.
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    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Neo-Cons are a bunch of super-rich guys who use their wealth to gain political power, and their political power to gain even more wealth.
    It's as simple as that.

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    I wholeheartily disagree with Farnan, it is the neo-cons who have pushed for anti-gay marriage bills. It is the neo-cons who have pushed for ID teachings in bio classes, it is the neo-cons who push for anti-abortion legislation, it is the neo-cons who bring the Terri Shiavo's to the government, it is the neo-cons who made the left hate the right even more. The neo-cons are extremists, simple as that
    Your making our point, Your illustrating just hoe the term neo con is missused and missunderstood. Heck people here have called me a neo con and Im an isolationist.

    Neo-Cons are a bunch of super-rich guys who use their wealth to gain political power, and their political power to gain even more wealth.
    It's as simple as that.
    You do realise the movement was started by disgruntled Jewish democrats for the most part?
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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh
    Your making our point, Your illustrating just hoe the term neo con is missused and missunderstood. Heck people here have called me a neo con and Im an isolationist.
    You do realise the movement was started by disgruntled Jewish democrats for the most part?
    I wouldnt call you a neo-con Rush, that would be an insult to your "traditional" conservatives ideals.

    But what you said about jewish former-dems starting this movemnet? I couldnt disagree more. We all know that it was ultra-religious zealots from the south, and either way they claim to be conservatives, they belong to the right wing party.

    added: what dictionary.com defines as neoconservatism

    An intellectual and political movement in favor of political, economic, and social conservatism that arose in opposition to the perceived liberalism of the 1960s: “The neo-conservatism of the 1980s is a replay of the New Conservatism of the 1950s, which was itself a replay of the New Era philosophy of the 1920s”
    I agree with everything there, except for the intellectual part
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    The prefix "neo" can denote that many of the movement's founders, originally liberals, Democrats or from socialist backgrounds, were new to conservatism
    The meaning of the term has changed over time. It was possibly first used circa 1970 by socialist author and activist Michael Harrington to characterize former leftists who had moved significantly to the right – people he derided as "socialists for Nixon." The "neoconservatives" thus described in this original sense tended to remain supporters of the welfare state, but had distinguished themselves from others on the left by allying with the Nixon administration over foreign policy, especially in their anti-communism, their support for the Vietnam War, and strident opposition to the Soviet Union.
    Shortcomings and criticism of the term "Neoconservative"
    Relatively few of those identified as neoconservatives embrace the term.

    Critics of the term argue that it lacks coherent definition, or that it is coherent only in a Cold War context, and note that many so-called neoconservatives vehemently disagree with one another on major issues, suggesting there is no coherent movement to be described.

    The fact that the use of the term "neoconservative" has rapidly risen since the 2003 Iraq War is cited by conservatives as proof that the term is largely irrelevant in the long term. David Horowitz, a purported leading neo-con thinker offered this critique in a recent interview with an Italian newspaper:

    Neo-conservatism is a term almost exclusively used by the enemies of America's liberation of Iraq. There is no "neo-conservative" movement in the United States. When there was one, it was made up of former Democrats who embraced the welfare state but supported Ronald Reagan's Cold War policies against the Soviet bloc. Today neo-conservatism identifies those who believe in an aggressive policy against radical Islam and the global terrorists.
    Similarly, many other supposed neoconservatives believe that the term has been adopted by the political left to stereotype supporters of U.S. foreign policy under the George W. Bush administration. Others have similarly likened descriptions of neoconservatism to a conspiracy theory and attribute the term to anti-Semitism. Paul Wolfowitz has denounced the term as meaningless label, saying:

    [If] you read the Middle Eastern press, it seems to be a euphemism for some kind of nefarious Zionist conspiracy. But I think that, in my view it's very important to approach [foreign policy] not from a doctrinal point of view. I think almost every case I know is different. Indonesia is different from the Philippines. Iraq is different from Indonesia. I think there are certain principles that I believe are American principles – both realism and idealism. I guess I'd like to call myself a democratic realist. I don't know if that makes me a neo-conservative or not.
    Jonah Goldberg and others have rejected the label as trite and over-used, arguing "There's nothing 'neo' about me: I was never anything other than conservative." Other critics have similarly argued the term has been rendered meaningless through excessive and inconsistent use. For example, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld are often identified as leading "neocons" despite the fact that both men have ostensibly been life-long conservative Republicans (though Cheney has been vocally supportive of the ideas of Irving Kristol). Such critics thus largely reject the claim that there is a neoconservative movement separate from traditional American conservatism.

    Other traditional conservatives are likewise skeptical of the contemporary usage term, and may dislike being associated with the stereotypes, or even the supposed agendas of the "neocons." Conservative columnist David Harsanyi wrote, "These days, it seems that even temperate support for military action against dictators and terrorists qualifies you a neocon."

    During the 1970s, for example in a book on the movement by Peter Steinfels, the use of the term neoconservative was never identified with the writings of Leo Strauss. The near synonymity, in some quarters, of neoconservatism and Straussianism is a much more recent phenomenon, which suggests that perhaps two quite distinct movements have become merged into one, either in fact or in the eyes of certain beholders.
    Do a bit of research before making baseless claims.

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  10. #10

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    "Similarly, many other supposed neoconservatives believe that the term has been adopted by the political left to stereotype supporters of U.S. foreign policy under the George W. Bush administration."


    That sounds about right to me. And thats the way I usually use the term "Neo-Con". I couldnt care less about what the term is SUPPOSED to describe, only what it actually means in todays world, i.e. to what it is applied.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman
    I wouldnt call you a neo-con Rush, that would be an insult to your "traditional" conservatives ideals.

    But what you said about jewish former-dems starting this movemnet? I couldnt disagree more. We all know that it was ultra-religious zealots from the south, and either way they claim to be conservatives, they belong to the right wing party.

    added: what dictionary.com defines as neoconservatism

    I agree with everything there, except for the intellectual part
    Most neocons dont really give a rats ass about ID, gay marriage etc. Neocons has absolutely nothing to do with the religious south..ZERO. I suggest you read up on Leo Strauss and Irving Kristol and then come back and say neocons has anything to do with religious zealots in the south. I think if people knew what a neocon really is they would be more worried then they are because it would be based on some facts and not misconceptions like yours.

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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    how is it baseless? it comes from a reliable site
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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    well, either way, I dont agree with the "traditonal" conservative or "neo"-con policies.

    edit: @danzig, I was half kidding about that "southern religious" crap
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman
    well, either way, I dont agree with the "traditonal" conservative or "neo"-con policies.
    How can you make a judgement if you dont understand what they are? Neocon and conservatives are two entirely different 'beasts' that are at odds with each other on many things but yet for some reason public perception is to link them because of the word conservative.


    edit: @danzig, I was half kidding about that "southern religious" crap
    Ah ok wasnt clear sorry

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    All I wanna know is...Bush and his cronies are at fault right?

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    John I Tzimisces's Avatar Get born again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RZZZA
    All I wanna know is...Bush and his cronies are at fault right?
    They are rather liberal when it comes to governance...the right in this country is pro-state power, and are supposed to be ideologically opposed to sweeping legislation like what the Bush administration puts out.

  17. #17
    Civitate
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan
    What is a Neo-Con really? Well to put it simply a Neo-Con is a person who pushes for the exportation of Democracy. Neo-conservatism is a political theory that the Democrazation of the world would promote world stability and prosperity. That is it, that is all that makes someone a Neo-Con.
    Oh comon that is an absolutely biased definition. They don't push for democracy, stability and prosperity they push for American dominance. The Neo-cons have been behind some of the most destabalizing and undemocratic incidents from the cold war to the present. They hardly support democracy if democracy puts in power regimes who don't agree with America (either politically or economically).

    Let's have a look at one of the neoconservative think tanks shall we:

    Project for the New American Century (i think the name says it all)

    The PNAC website [2] states the group's "fundamental propositions", which are

    * "American leadership is good both for America and for the world"
    * "such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle"
    * "too few political leaders today are making the case for global leadership."

    The PNAC also made a statement of principles at their 1997 inception.

    As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's pre-eminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?

    The PNAC advocates "a policy of military strength and moral clarity" which includes:

    * A significant increase of U.S. defense spending.
    * Strengthening ties with the U.S.'s allies and to challenge regimes hostile to U.S. interests and values.
    * Promoting the cause of political and economic freedom outside the U.S.
    * Preserving and extending an international order friendly to U.S. security, prosperity, and principles.
    They support democracy if democracy serves America, which is to say that don't support democracy at all.
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    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Quote Originally Posted by danzig
    How can you make a judgement if you dont understand what they are? Neocon and conservatives are two entirely different 'beasts' that are at odds with each other on many things but yet for some reason public perception is to link them because of the word conservative.
    Now that I do understand them, I still dont agree with them. And isnt it likely that neocons and regular cons both vote republican?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman
    Now that I do understand them, I still dont agree with them. And isnt it likely that neocons and regular cons both vote republican?
    I didnt vote for George Bush when he ran against Gore fyi, why do you think some of the most vocal and pointed critical comments made about the Bush admin are coming from 'true' cons the past year or so? Remember the average voter generally isnt a left wing whacko or a right wing nutcase they vote for who appeals to them the most. I think it says something if some of the most right on the mark critical commentary about the Bush admin come from Newt Grinrich and Pat Buchanan (much more so with Pat then Newt though) two people arent really in the neocon circle.

  20. #20
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Quote Originally Posted by danzig
    Remember the average voter generally isnt a left wing whacko or a right wing nutcase they vote for who appeals to them the most.
    good point
    house of Rububula, under the patronage of Nihil, patron of Hotspur, David Deas, Freddie, Askthepizzaguy and Ketchfoop
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