'Disaster Units'

[Stack of Peasants]

This is a thread to list units in vanilla or modded (Third Age, SS, etc.) M2TW that you would consider to be Disaster Units. This means that if you, without knowing any better, were to rely on these units in a large battle, it would lead to a military disaster.

1. Vanilla M2TW: Dismounted English Knights. The high attack rating of this unit, along with its in-game description, make it seem as if they should be the most powerful foot unit in the game. However, they perform so poorly on offense or defense that it makes you wonder whether they are some type of joke by the game developers. Their low defense ensures that they take terrible casualties against almost any type of unit.

2. V. M2TW: English Billmen. Simply horrible in every situation. Their pole weapon is laughably short, making it look like they are swinging a broom handle. Combine this with their extremely thin armor, and these guys drop like flies in even light combat.

3. V. M2TW: Byzantine Kataphract. You can't train these guys until you have a King's Stable, leading you to believe they are some kind of ultimate cavalry unit. In reality, their stats are only slightly better than Mailed Knights. I tested the Kataphract in a custom battle against one unit of unarmored spear militia. On a flat field, the Kataphract lost a quarter of their number in the initial charge.

[Leaf-Fan-Forever]

Kataphracts are AP in melee, so they can stay in combat for awhile, and will take down sword cavalry.

[ByzantineCaesar]

Vanilla M2TW: Byzantine Lancers: they fall like flies even when you charge some archers.
Vanilla M2TW: Byzantine Spearman: useless in any situation
SS 6.3: Byzantine Guard Pikemen (Menavlotoi): Wow, they wield a pike but are still spearman! Awesome! Well, let's say that 202 is a poor number for that unit. Maybe 500 of them could be of use in a single unit.

[thespaniard]

um templar sergents in SS

[John Haukewood]

Two-handers, even those gorgeous, shiny dismounted Gothic Knights.

[... where did it run?]

Some of two handers like Berdiche axemen, Egyptian two handed axemen, Varangian guard.. they can be trained from cities. And they polearms have fast attack versus any cavalry. Making them excellent at repelling mongol/timurid invasions.

[Antimatkiller]

Peasants

[Kozmonavt]

Peasants

You're kidding. You charge them with a unit of mailed knights and they tear half of them to pieces. It looks like they really hate paying those taxes.

[Silverheart]

Billmen: Worthless, hard to master and weak. It is doubtful whether these guys could win a battle against a beached whale... that´s asleep...
Highlanders: They may look tough, what with their nice attack rating and cool appearance and all.
But they should NOT be relied upon unless they outnumber their enemy 5 to 1.
And even then, you can´t be sure.
Danish Obudshaer: A super-powerful, castle trained halberd unit, well armed and well armoured - on paper, maybe...
Aside from the fact that NO-ONE knows how to pronounce their name properly (even the danes themselves have troubles), they can´t hold a line against anything other than field rabbits, and die in record numbers in any situation.
"maximum casualties, minimum effectiveness, that´s us!"
Mercenary Arquebusiers: Not really a catastrophic unit when you know how to handle them.
But if you were to rely on them, you would quickly find that their reload time if waaay to long to stop anything.
You could blast off ten units of these straight at a single units of peasants, and those damn hicks would still come at you.
And as for protection, well, the only visible protection they have is that strange Cup over their family jewels.
Varangian Guard: Look supercool, especially with everything we´ve read and heard about this legendary band of imperial guardians. But just like most of the Byzantine Empire, they seem to have knack for getting their behinds handed to them.
Stradiots: Seriously, WHAT THE HARK are those guys good for? Is this seriously the last and ultimate cavalry unit that we pay like 10 000 florins to gain access to? They are too weak for outflanking the enemy general, they are too weak for charging, and what´s the point of being fast enough to catch horse archers - When You´re Too Weak To Beat Them?

There´s a few, folks! Pick you favourite!
And don´t forget to add your Own disastrous failures to this thread!

[KnightOfPortugal]

Lancers - In theory the best heavy cavalry available, in theory they're worse than chivalric knights and their German counterparts 'Gothic Knights' who got worse stats, but at least a mace to pierce shiny armour.

Zweihänders - Zweihänders without a 'bonus vs armour' trait, should be thrown to the lions.

Pretty much all of the Byzantine infantry.

[Antimatkiller]

Realtime combat:Tabadarria.I mean what the heck was he thinking?You cant play as egypt anymore.

[King Gambrinus]

Pavise Spearmen are sensationally poor in a melee.


Afghan Javs...where to start?


Any two handed unit willing to hold the line.


Kataphractoi - Not only has the ERE seemingly lost the "technology" to produce Cataphracts, but when you do finally get them, they're not half as good as their predecessors...

[EmperorDan]

Any Peasant Archer-they run like rats when any unit just look at them!

Stradiots-super fast, super useless when they reach target!

Billmen-weird!

Perhaps, byzzie spearmen and in general, they infantry.

[tudor93]

lots of Byzantine haters here I see

[EmperorDan]

lots of Byzantine haters here I see

They do have some cool units:-?...I don't remember any at the moment but still...

[Kozmonavt]

They do have some cool units:-?...I don't remember any at the moment but still...

Alemanoi are surprisingly effective. Flamethrowers as well, but you have to be lucky.

[Sulfurion Blackfyre]

What's all this talk about the Byzzies units sucking? They have an awesome roster, altough a little underpowered I'll admit. You just have to know how to use them. Byzantine Infantry + Byzantine Spearmen + Trebizond Archers + Any cavalry unit and you have an awesome and balanced roster!

Hmm disaster units let me think...only Billmen really, those are the only two handed units that don't work for me, all the others I don't know why, but I like their performance, they are awesome shock troopers, and don't take massive casualties like everyone implies (unless you don't know how to use them, that's an entirely different story, like ramming cavalry against stakes and saying cavalry sucks).

[happy01]

This is a thread to list units in vanilla or modded (Third Age, SS, etc.) M2TW that you would consider to be Disaster Units. This means that if you, without knowing any better, were to rely on these units in a large battle, it would lead to a military disaster.

1. Vanilla M2TW: Dismounted English Knights. The high attack rating of this unit, along with its in-game description, make it seem as if they should be the most powerful foot unit in the game. However, they perform so poorly on offense or defense that it makes you wonder whether they are some type of joke by the game developers. Their low defense ensures that they take terrible casualties against almost any type of unit.

2. V. M2TW: English Billmen. Simply horrible in every situation. Their pole weapon is laughably short, making it look like they are swinging a broom handle. Combine this with their extremely thin armor, and these guys drop like flies in even light combat.

3. V. M2TW: Byzantine Kataphract. You can't train these guys until you have a King's Stable, leading you to believe they are some kind of ultimate cavalry unit. In reality, their stats are only slightly better than Mailed Knights. I tested the Kataphract in a custom battle against one unit of unarmored spear militia. On a flat field, the Kataphract lost a quarter of their number in the initial charge.

Lol Billmen and Dismounted English Knights are not the worst seriously
Usually there jobs are the shock troops for siege and reserves for field battle if you know what i mean!
Here's my idea for field battle don't use them as a front line troops because that's plainly stupid.
As you know they have low defense compared to there counterpart.
I usually put my Longbowmen as my front line unit for a trap to attracts Ai Cavalry and even the General unit then i withdraw them then i called for my reserves and slaughter begins.

As for my siege battle i use my billmen to captured the walls usually they can kill spear militia or levy militia and peasant archer usually with support of missile unit. (billmen is the early English shock troop for me)

Yeah agreed investing them is a bad idea.

As for Byzantine Kataphract (i never played them yet)

For my Disaster Units
Mercenary Crossbowman
Peasants
Early Units called militia
Hobilars

[Somerandomdude2]

Mercenary Crossbowman

What?

These guys have saved my neck in soooo many different fights.

AP of crossbows = Snipers! = Dead enemy general, which especially early game with armies full of the militia you mentioned is pretty awesome.

Not to mention that if I recall correctly they're not-horrible in melee, and since they're mercs, you usually don't mind them taking heavy casualties so let them play their supporting light-infantry role when the enemy get too close.

AND, there's also the fact that they're extremely readily available mercenaries who can bolster your ranks at the last minute whenever you need them and provide you with that missile superiority that's so valuable.



I also don't hate billmen; they've always done their job for me. Just don't put two-handers in spots where they'll actually take hits. Defend walls, flank stuff, or mix them in with your heavy (one-handed weapon wielding) infantry. They kill stuff quickly, what's not to value about that?
That, plus two-hander high attack combined with a charge bonus makes for some awesome charges.

[PrestigeX]

You aren't supposed to use 2-hander units for 'holding a line' -- they are for assault and flanking. You make your line .. spearmen or dfk type units.. with a second line of 2-4 2 hander units, let the enemy infantry engage, use the 2-handers to run out to the sides and charge into the flanks or rear.

But, then again I'm playing a mod not vanilla m2tw, and all the 2hander units in the mod are worth the money they cost, and actually work amazingly.

I'd say the biggest dissapointment unit would be the nubian archers - kind a b.s. unit.

and, Granadine Jinettes - cost a lot more to recruit and upkeep than desert cavarly, and are the same if not worse (no desert combat bonus)