Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 137

Thread: Arabs and democracy

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default Arabs and democracy

    Is there a single properly functioning democracy in the Arab world?
    Let's take a look at a few Arab countries here -

    Egypt - Been under the control of a series of dictators since the 50's
    Syria - Under the al Assads for a long time, no real democratic structure
    Iraq - Coup after coup since the 50's, current government is a joke
    Lebanon - Rife with sectarian violence, shaky and unstable democratic system
    Jordan - A monarchy
    Sudan - Civil wars and genocide, coup bringing Bashir to power
    Saudi - Monarchy
    Tunisia - Dictator till recently, let's see what happens
    Morocco - Constitutional monarchy, seems the closest to normal
    Qatar - Monarchy
    Libya - Dictatorship under Gaddafi
    Kuwait - Monarchy
    Oman - Not very sure
    Algeria - President propped up by army
    UAE - Monarchies

    I'd appreciate any input someone more knowledgeable could provide.

    And to everyone telling me Lebanon is a democracy, I said Properly Functioning. When a terrorist organisation has that much power in your country I do not consider it properly functioning.
    Last edited by Astor; January 22, 2011 at 04:26 AM.
    Screw multiculturalism and the horse it rode in on



  2. #2

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Astor View Post
    Jordan - A monarchy
    So monarchy=nondemocratic without any explanations?
    Jordan is considerable freer then the majority of Arab countries.

    Beleive it or not Lebanon is the most democratic Arab country.

    But I agree high level of democracy isn't characteristic of Arab world. Islam has something to do with that but not in totality.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    So monarchy=nondemocratic without any explanations?
    Jordan is considerable freer then the majority of Arab countries.

    Beleive it or not Lebanon is the most democratic Arab country.

    But I agree high level of democracy isn't characteristic of Arab world. Islam has something to do with that but not in totality.
    While in the West all monarchs are basically figureheads and hold the barest modicum of power, in the Middle East monarchs have a great deal of power and their decisions actually mean something. I don't think there are constitutional monarchies anywhere in the region.

    Lebanon might be democratic, but it is not stable. Syria exerts a lot of influence and Hezbollah might as well be labelled "Property of Iran". And now that Hezbollah has pulled out and the Druze leader threw his support behind them it's only a matter of time before starts blowing up.

    And Indonesia is officially secular. Officially.
    Last edited by Astor; January 22, 2011 at 04:27 AM.
    Screw multiculturalism and the horse it rode in on



  4. #4

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Oman is either an absolute monarchy or military dictatorship depending on how you look at it.

    The previous Sultan made the mistake of sending his son to Sandhurst. His son returned with the British army at his back and was able to kick his old-fashioned father out of the country. There are no democratic institutions, even though the Sultan is western oriented. It is unclear if the Sultan has children or is even married. What will happen upon his death is unknown.

    Kuwait does have a fledgling parliament, but it is a token institution more than anything else.

    And your characterization of Algeria is off. Algeria has all the institutions of a constitutional democracy and a multi-party parliament. But like Russia a popular president has consolidated political power.

    I hope that in the next ten years we see a series of revolutions in Arab north Africa. Tunisia already has made its move, and there are rumors that Ghadaffi's son wants to make Libya a democracy upon his fathers death. Mubarak is already 82 and hopefully upon his death democratic institutions will reemerge in Egypt. Its not too far fetched to imagine democracies from Rabat to Cairo sometime in the next decade or so.
    Last edited by Sphere; January 22, 2011 at 02:30 AM.

  5. #5
    Babur's Avatar ز آفتاب درخشان ستاره می
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Agra,Hindustan
    Posts
    15,405

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    Oman is either an absolute monarchy or military dictatorship depending on how you look at it.

    The previous Sultan made the mistake of sending his son to Sandhurst. His son returned with the British army at his back and was able to kick his old-fashioned father out of the country. There are no democratic institutions, even though the Sultan is western oriented. It is unclear if the Sultan has children or is even married. What will happen upon his death is unknown.
    Oman is an absolute monarchy, with the Sultan heading the cabinet he has a few women in his cabinet too I think .


    just would like to add that there are elections in Kuwait too despite it being a monarchy
    Last edited by Babur; January 22, 2011 at 08:08 AM.
    Under the patronage of Gertrudius!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Babur View Post
    Oman is an absolute monarchy, with the Sultan heading the cabinet he has a few women in his cabinet too I think .


    just would like to add that there are elections in Kuwait too despite it being a monarchy
    kuwait is constitutional monarchy and as i see its the best state in the area with maybe uae

  7. #7

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Jordan is a constitutional monarchy, isn't it? I thought they had a cabinet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Nicholas View Post
    May I suggest ya'll get back on topic. Talk about Napoleon's ethnicity in another thread, this thread is about a leashed penis...
    Quote Originally Posted by Someone
    Life is routine, punctuated by excitement.





  8. #8

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Jordan is a constitutional monarchy, isn't it? I thought they had a cabinet.
    The king still holds the majority of the power and appoints the cabinet, judges and commands the armed forces, so its more of a monarchy than a democracy though there is a parliament.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    The king still holds the majority of the power and appoints the cabinet, judges and commands the armed forces, so its more of a monarchy than a democracy though there is a parliament.
    So being a monarchy excludes being a democracy?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    So being a monarchy excludes being a democracy?
    Unless the king is elected.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    Unless the king is elected.
    So Britain, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Japan aren't democracies?

  12. #12
    ♔Goodguy1066♔'s Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Kokhav Ya'ir, Israel / Jewhannesburg
    Posts
    9,043

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    So Britain, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Japan aren't democracies?
    The monarch isn't in charge of any of the three branches of government in any of the countries mentioned above. Britain and (most of) the Commonwealth countries are democratic because their leaders are elected by the people and not just given the throne because their parents held the throne before them. Jordan, while technically a constituational monarchy, is effectively run by a man who was not chosen by the people and is therefore not a democracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    Civic: Islam has nothing to do with it. Indonesia is democratic, as is Bangladesh. For periods of time Pakistan is democratic, and Muslims partake in Indian democracy and Western democracy.
    And Turkey as well, if I may add.
    A member of the Most Ancient, Puissant and Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers
    Secret Sig Content Box!

    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  13. #13
    MarcoA's Avatar Foederatus
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Doesn't Matter
    Posts
    38

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    UK is a parlamentarist democracy, but it isn't an monarchy. "Queen" Elisabeth II is an simbol of the nation, like the flag or the coat of arms.
    I think I'm the only person in this forum that uses his own photo instead of Faction Simbols/Drawings/Paintings/Memes

  14. #14
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Right behind you starring over your shoulder.
    Posts
    31,638

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Lebanon is actually very democratic. Iraq is also a democracy and their government controls their country (there were more deaths due to the Mexican Drug war than the Iraq War in 2010). Jordan has the beginnings of democratic institutions, Tunisia is heading towards a democracy. The UAE is a Feudal State, but there is a growing movement towards democracy. Kuwait is making a move towards democracy, slowly but surely. The Palestinian Terrorities were democratic till the Hamas Coup. Bahrain is also moving pretty quickly towards democracy.

    Civic: Islam has nothing to do with it. Indonesia is democratic, as is Bangladesh. For periods of time Pakistan is democratic, and Muslims partake in Indian democracy and Western democracy.
    Last edited by Farnan; January 22, 2011 at 03:03 AM.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  15. #15

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    Civic: Islam has nothing to do with it. Indonesia is democratic, as is Bangladesh. For periods of time Pakistan is democratic, and Muslims partake in Indian democracy and Western democracy.
    A democratic state has to be secular. Turkey and Indonesia are secular countries. When I said Islam I meant that in Arab countries religion is interfering with law and every aspects of society, as Islam is seen not only as religion but a source for law and even legitimacy of the state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    In Jordan the person who runs the day-to-day government and the armed forces is chosen by heredity. I not going to explain further as it would be condescending.
    ... or embarassing. You said a monarchy isn't a democracy unless the king is elected. You referred to monarchy in general not to Jordan.

  16. #16
    ♔Goodguy1066♔'s Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Kokhav Ya'ir, Israel / Jewhannesburg
    Posts
    9,043

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    A democratic state has to be secular. Turkey and Indonesia are secular countries. When I said Islam I meant that in Arab countries religion is interfering with law and every aspects of society, as Islam is seen not only as religion but a source for law and even legitimacy of the state.
    Indonesia is not a secular country, as far as I'm aware.



    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    ... or embarassing. You said a monarchy isn't a democracy unless the king is elected. You referred to monarchy in general not to Jordan.
    A monarchy is a form of government in which all political power is absolutely or nominally lodged with an individual, known as a monarch ("single ruler"), or king (male), queen (female).
    You listed constituational monarchies, Jordan is effectively a monarchy and thus not a democracy.
    A member of the Most Ancient, Puissant and Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers
    Secret Sig Content Box!

    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    You listed constituational monarchies, Jordan is effectively a monarchy and thus not a democracy.
    By your definition it says the power absolutely or nominally lodged to one person who is head of state. So by sayin absolutely but also nominally it means that the definition includes all forms of monarchy.

    There are two main forms of governements : monarchies and republics, not monarchies and democracies.

    Monarchies but also the republics can be democratic or undemocratic.

    Usually monarchies can be absolutist, semi-constititutional or constitutional. But even if the monarchy is constitutional isn't in itself a guarantee it's democratic.

    So Jordan is a monarchy but so it's Britain, because both have a monarch as head of state. The difference is the power the monarch holds, in Britain the executive power belongs to the prime minister, the legislative power to the Parliament. In Jordan the king still holds considerable legislative and executive power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    On behalf of all members of the board, I accept your apology for deliberately misinterpreting my meaning so you could have your little tangent on the difference between a constitutional monarchy and an absolute monarchy. You are forgiven. Do you want to do the difference between a Republic and a Democracy know or save it for later?
    OK, I'll take advantage of your great generosity to explain to you that Republic isn't necessarily democratic, as Monarchy isn't necessarily undemocratic. So it's wrong to say there are countries that are Republics and countries that are undemocratic (like in the case you said Jordan is a monarchy not a democracy). Like in monarchies a republic can be democratic or a dictatorship. Even if they have a Constitution that doesn't mean they are democratic because the constitution can set undemocratic rules or formal rules that in practice are perverted by the regime.

    P.S. I'm glad to finally meet a representative of the members of this board, a person who can speak on behalf of all of them.
    Last edited by CiviC; January 22, 2011 at 04:16 AM.

  18. #18
    ♔Goodguy1066♔'s Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Kokhav Ya'ir, Israel / Jewhannesburg
    Posts
    9,043

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    By your definition it says the power absolutely or nominally lodged to one person who is head of state. So by sayin absolutely but also nominally it means that the definition includes all forms of monarchy.

    There are two main forms of governements : monarchies and republics, not monarchies and democracies.

    Monarchies but also the republics can be democratic or undemocratic.

    Usually monarchies can be absolutist, semi-constititutional or constitutional. But even if the monarchy is constitutional isn't in itself a guarantee it's democratic.

    So Jordan is a monarchy but so it's Britain, because both have a monarch as head of state. The difference is the power the monarch holds, in Britain the executive power belongs to the prime minister, the legislative power to the Parliament. In Jordan the king still holds considerable legislative and executive power.
    I was in the middle of writing a long reply when I read my defenition again and realised you were right. Sorry mate.
    A member of the Most Ancient, Puissant and Honourable Society of Silly Old Duffers
    Secret Sig Content Box!

    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔ View Post
    Indonesia is not a secular country, as far as I'm aware.
    Indonesia doesnt have a state religion.


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

    "Feminists are silent when the bills arrive." -- Aetius

    "Women have made a pact with the devil — in return for the promise of exquisite beauty, their window to this world of lavish male attention is woefully brief." -- Some Guy

  20. #20

    Default Re: Arabs and democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    The Palestinian Terrorities were democratic till the Hamas Coup. Bahrain is also moving pretty quickly towards democracy.
    Hamas Coup? Hamas won the elections, it was Fatah that decided that it didn't want to give up power.

Page 1 of 6 123456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •