Is it a good idea to water down your glass...

[Helm]

Is it a good idea to water down your glass of atheism with a drop of pantheism or deism or should you just drink it straight for the full flavour of reality?

I'm still a little unclear on how this should be going down my hatch, certainly if you can knock it back straight without any faffing around that will put hairs on your chest imo. But there is the temptation to pour a little something extra in there, there are bottles labelled Buddhism, Taoism and New Age bull for instance which seem reasonably safe to me. Though when I see another atheist drinking it that way I feel like telling them just to pour themeselves a straight glass of pure atheism and knock it back like a man rather than partially or half believeing in these spiritual or metaphysical philosophies. There are Buddhists who don't believe in reincarnation for instance, is this logical or is it just defeating the whole point of it?

Edited: shortened title and placed title in thread to establish the topic -- VP

[Sphere]

I don't see why you should not be able to believe in some Buddhist, Christian, Islamic etc. philosophies on morality but still reject the fact that they have supernatural origins. It is sad that religion has had a near monopoly on moral/ethical thought for most of human history, but that doesn't mean moral/ethical thinkers in religious traditions didn't come up with some useful insights.

I think you might be interested in Sam Harris's approach....

[Tacitursa]

It will lessen the hangover but you'll never truely be drunk in the first place.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Its not our fault that theres no god and that when we die we get to see our love ones... its just how things are.

[CamilleBonparte]

This doesn't seem like a valid premise for a thread in a discussion forum. Seems rather spam-tastic in fact.

Please get a blog Helm.

[Tuor]

This doesn't seem like a valid premise for a thread in a discussion forum. Seems rather spam-tastic in fact.

Please get a blog Helm.

Discussion and debate. This thread doesn't need a premise. If you don't want to talk about Helm's topic, don't post in this thread.

And Helm, I think you should chug whichever philosophies, morals, and/or values appeal to you along with your atheism. Like the guy was talking about in that video, atheism does not mean you can't experience something transcendent of reality.

[CamilleBonparte]

Discussion and debate. This thread doesn't need a premise. If you don't want to talk about Helm's topic, don't post in this thread.

The problem with Helm's topic is it's just another post in a series of posts about Helm's personal "spiritual journey". Except for Helm he decides to make each of these posts into separate threads entirely. Like I said, spam-tastic.

Helm, why is there a temptation for you to "put something extra in there" if you've decided that atheism is the correct world view? Atheism can only stand alone. You can't be a Buddhist atheist, that's contradictory (que Denny Crane). Buddhism is a religion with supernatural beliefs. Atheism denies everything supernatural. If you want to be an atheist you can't really mix anything else in there.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Atheism denies everything supernatural.

While studying how the universe works can't have supernatural answers, wondering why it exists certainly must.

[Tuor]

While studying how the universe works can't have supernatural answers, wondering why it exists certainly must.

The existence of the universe doesn't imply that there is anything supernatural, really. It's possible that there is something supernatural involved, sure, but its existence does not explicitly have to be. But I disagree that atheists cannot be interested or involved in the supernatural. Just because you deny the existence of god/gods does not mean that you deny the possibility of the supernatural.

[Helm]

Helm, why is there a temptation for you to "put something extra in there" if you've decided that atheism is the correct world view?

I don't think it is a world view it's just the world as it is, what you have there is a pure dose of reality. A pure dose of reality delivers a hefty kick though which is why I suppose some atheists like to water it down with something a bit more consoling. It's is fine to do but but it does seem like watering down some finely matured reality. I don't suppose I could interest you in a snifter of this stuff? A sip of this and bang, that's a hit of pure reality, it'll knock your socks off and blow your faith to smithereens. Make sure to pass it around though as that's some quality stuff and there are plenty of people who could do with a sip, though they would probably refuse because they don't have the stomach for it.

Atheism can only stand alone. You can't be a Buddhist atheist, that's contradictory (que Denny Crane). Buddhism is a religion with supernatural beliefs. Atheism denies everything supernatural. If you want to be an atheist you can't really mix anything else in there.

Denny Crane is a prime example of what I mean, he's having his snifter of pure reality but it's on the rocks as shown below, the ice represents something he finds a little more comforting than just the reality taken straight. I could probably go for something like Buddhism a little more seriously as long as there is still be a potent hit of reality mixed in with it, the supernatural details would only be highly possible rather than absolutely certain. Though there is something about the word supernatural that rubs me up the wrong way. I think if something exists then it must be entirely natural and there would be a good explanation for it even if you don't know what that explanation entails.

[MaximiIian]

Atheism denies everything supernatural.

Not quite. Atheism simply rejects any god or gods. Anything and everything else is fair game.
However, as soon as you "add" some deism or pantheism to one's ideology, it ceases to be atheism. Deism is incredibly monotheistic, and pantheism, while less personal-god focussed, is still a form of theism. By definition, you can't simultaneously be an atheist and a pantheist or deist.

I do agree, though, that Helm needs to stop spamming this section with this crap. It's boring and doesn't actually contribute to anything.

[The Dude]

Atheism can only stand alone. [...] Atheism denies everything supernatural. If you want to be an atheist you can't really mix anything else in there.

Atheism denies god, and that's literally all there is to it. Denying god is no philosophical basis so in fact no, atheism can't stand alone. An atheist will always be atheist plus something else. Imagine the following:

"What do you believe in?"
"Not in god."
"But in what instead?"
"Well, not god."
"I know, but surely you believe in something else in addition to not god?"
"I don't believe in god, and that's it."

I'm sure you agree with me on the idiocy of such a conversation.

In my case, for example, I don't believe in god, but I do believe in a human purpose. I don't believe in god, but I do believe in an absolute morality.

Helm, your problem is that you're not willing to travel down new paths. You're looking at the old beaten ones and find yourself forced with a decision you don't really want to make. That's, I think, what causes your spiritual unrest. Don't assume that everything has already been thought of before you and that all that's left to you is picking from a pre-selected hand. If that were the case, there would be nothing left to think of for the (hopefully) countless generations yet to come.

At least deism isn't as totalitarian and big brother'ish as theism. Theism is a perfected model of 1984.

Theism is the belief in a god. No further implications. You're confusing it with the power structure inherent in organised religion, but that's a different animal.

[(s)AINT]

Theism is the belief in a god. No further implications. You're confusing it with the power structure inherent in organised religion, but that's a different animal.

The belief in a God that doesn't follow our natural laws via science, who is a mysterious figure and has powers that no human or know force can have, is exactly like Big Brother. Those who believe in such a being are holding a wish to be in bondage, mentally and physically.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Reality is such a wonderfully mutable concept. Everybody is so sure about what "reality" is, yet it escapes everyone.

To answer the question, the sort of soulless, mathematical and objectifying thing which atheists identify as "reality" is not "reality"... At all. It is a mere construct, a mere model, of no validity outside its own narrow frame. If you think you know reality perfectly, you're most assuredly deluded.

[Helm]

To answer the question, the sort of soulless, mathematical and objectifying thing which atheists identify as "reality" is not "reality"... At all. It is a mere construct, a mere model, of no validity outside its own narrow frame. If you think you know reality perfectly, you're most assuredly deluded.

All you have to do to get your hit of real reality is not make assumptions about the nature of reality, you merely take it straight as it is. If you don't know something then you simply don't know you don't use faith to make up for this lack. This is the hard hit of reality as most people don't like that level of uncertainty.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

All you have to do to get your hit of real reality is not make assumptions about the nature of reality, you merely take it straight as it is.

Impossible and fallacious.

If you don't know something then you simply don't know you don't use faith to make up for this lack. This is the hard hit of reality as most people don't like that level of uncertainty.

False dichotomies = faith x reason, reason x emotion.

[Tankbuster]

I meditate.
I read buddhist philosophers and I read Taoistic works.
And I practice some of the concepts I find in those works.

There's nothing about rejecting the supernatural that implies that you cannot explore your consciousness and dwell in those states of it that you might not ordinarily access. There's nothing that says that ancient texts do not wisdom and concepts which may be useful and beneficial to practice in the modern day.

All it means is that you do it without pretending to know things that you do not know.

[Denny Crane!]

Of course I can be a buddhist atheist Buddhism to me is looking at reality clearly without the illusions and the predicates that you build up and hold on to, to try and keep your reality in check without having to see it for what it is. Meditation is merely a dissembling of your perceptual constructs that has psychological and physiological effects, no mysticism. I'm in the middle of writing a rather long post on that if anyone is interested btw.

We're like whirlwinds who wish we were rocks, we cling to thoughts about what we are, about what we might be, about what others are and all in the vain hope that it might provide some solidity to our lives and if we don't get it there we get it from a fantasy of religion. There are roots to these thoughts and philosophy not just in buddhism but in existentialism, epicureanism and various other philosophies and some religions.

I honestly believe in taking the brutal cold truth of reality, that we are here and we suffer and it may not ever get better. But there is only this moment that we exist and we should seek as much pleasure in it as we can (pleasure in the epicurean sense not the semi-mythical distorted hedonistic sense).

But please don't distort my beliefs into any kind of spiritual deistic because that is not where I am going with it.

[Helm]

*snip*

The thing about Buddhism is that's it's meant to help you escape from the cycle of rebirth, if there isn't a cycle of rebirth it's all a bit moot you're on a way one way ticket out of here. There is some practical psychology and code of ethics involved but nothing radically different from what most religions teach or all these New Age bull books I have.

Talking about watering down your atheism, someones watered down my thread title.

[Denny Crane!]

The thing about Buddhism is that's it's meant to help you escape from the cycle of rebirth, if there isn't a cycle of rebirth it's all a bit moot you're on a way one way ticket out of here. There is some practical psychology and code of ethics involved but nothing radically different from what most religions teach or all these New Age bull books I have.

Talking about watering down your atheism, someones watered down my thread title.

That is your opinion and I've since given up trying to convert others to mine, but I have stated my opinion and that is often different to how others characterise my opinion.