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  1. #1
    Blaze86420's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    So I'm starting this thread to get an idea of what the Israelis on this forum are willing to bring to the bargaining table. Now I would really appreciate it if this thread doesn't devolve into the flame fest this topic usually ignites, I just want to know what the Israelis on this thread are willing to give up and what other people think is fair. So no more "but you started it!" accusations, and no more "Palestine never existed!" bullcrap.

    Ehem... I'll just start off by stating how I think this peace deal should work.


    -Abandonment of all Israeli settlements in the West bank, swap some land to fix up the demographics if necessary.
    -Western Jerusalem given to Israel and the Eastern half to the West Bank. Or all of Jerusalem could just be given up for UN administration.
    -Palestine should become completely sovereign; the ability to field their own security forces and the withdrawal of all IDF soldiers from the West bank.
    -Resuming trilateral peace talks between Israel, Fateh, and Hamas.
    -Hamas rewriting its charter; no more of that anti-semitic crap.
    -Right of return for Palestinian and Jewish refugees.
    -Elimination of discriminatory laws in Israel, Israel can stay a Jewish state but it should acknowledge its large Arab minority.


    Feel free to disagree with me and provide another alternative, but I repeat my request for a polite and civil discussion.
    Last edited by Blaze86420; January 20, 2011 at 10:25 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze86420 View Post
    So I'm starting this thread to get an idea of what the Israelis on this forum are willing to bring to the bargaining table. Now I would really appreciate it if this thread doesn't devolve into the flame fest this topic usually ignites, I just want to know what the Israelis on this thread are willing to give up and what other people think is fair. So no more "but you started it!" accusations, and no more "Palestine never existed!" bullcrap.

    Ehem... I'll just start off by stating how I think this peace deal should work.


    -Abandonment of all Israeli settlements in the West bank, swap some land to fix up the demographics if necessary.
    -Western Jerusalem given to Israel and the Eastern half to the West Bank. Or all of Jerusalem could just be given up for UN administration.
    -Palestine should become completely sovereign; the ability to field their own security forces and the withdrawal of all IDF soldiers from the West bank.
    -Resuming trilateral peace talks between Israel, Fateh, and Hamas.
    -Hamas rewriting its charter; no more of that anti-semitic crap.
    -Right of return for Palestinian and Jewish refugees.
    -Elimination of discriminatory laws in Israel, Israel can stay a Jewish state but it should acknowledge its large Arab minority.


    Feel free to disagree with me and provide another alternative, but I repeat my request for a polite and civil discussion.
    Sounds very reasonable, though I think that either will agree about Jerusalem. I think the only solution is to let Jerusalem stay in Israeli hands, as I don't see them abandoning the city.

  3. #3
    eran's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    I think that some parts of Jerusalem should be international, some Palestinians and some Israeli like the Jewish quarter and the western wall.
    Also the IDF should stay in some parts of the West Bank until Palestine can make the area secured.
    Abandoning the settlements is not realistic (Why do you think they are there?) so other territory should be given to Palestine in exchange.
    Also some kind of free borders like in Europe could be nice when there will not be security problems. That's way the Jews could visit Jewish places in Palestine easily and the Arabs could continue work in Israel without waiting so much at the border.

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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    The problem is that whether the Palestinian bits are sovereign or not, they are economic basket cases. And Gaza and the West Bank will never cooperate as a single entity -- not to mention the transit problems between the two. If there is a state solution, it will be a three state solution with each of the Palestinian bits closely associated with Jordan and Egypt on life support. Until the Palestinians see a three state solution, there can be no movement on any plan. Israel s not the problem. Gaza v. West Bank for Palestinian political supremacy is the problem.

    Jerusalem (except perhaps some suburbian bits) will remain Israeli. If there is a fudge to this it will be some sort of international commision jointly administered by some religious groups over the joint holy sites to assure fair access by all.
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    It's a tough on as it's such a small country that Israel won't want to give anything away

  6. #6

    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    Make Jerusalem an independent city, or city state (similar to Vatican), it shouldn't belong to one entity, or even be divided. Of course getting all sides to agree to that will be a challenge. And obviously stop new Israeli settlements.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    I love how the Two State solutionists keep talking about a racial Jewish and a racial Arab state. What is going to be the racial homeland/state for the other, smaller, Palestinian communities?
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    eran's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    What communities?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    Druze, Armenians, Bedouines, etcetera. These are also native minorities.
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    eran's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    They don't seem to want a country.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔IPA35♔ View Post
    Druze, Armenians, Bedouines, etcetera. These are also native minorities.
    Armenians have (wait for it) Armenia, Bedouines are nomads, and the Druze don't seek their own state since they're doing just fine in Israel. Also, the Druze don't seem to care about the fact that there's a Star of David on their country's flag, and neither do many Bedouines and quite a few Arab-Israelis. They understand what the Jewish State means to us, many serve in the IDF and take pride in their country; most minority groups in Israel are much better off here than in any of the neighbouring states (to be fair that's not saying much). There's a country the size of New Jersey that is centred around the Jewish people, big whoop.

    P.S. I wholeheartedly support any nation that seeks self-determination, including the Palestinians.
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    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  12. #12
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    So they are stateless? They are natives to the region, local governments should accept this. This is why it is wrong to have ethically specific countries in the Palestine region.
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    Palestinian Armenians have lived in Palestine for a very long time. They are a native group. The Druze seem indifferent because atleast now they are not prosecuted anymore by Arabs. That they now live in a country that is not for them even if they lived there far longer than the zionists is the lesser evil. The Bedouines, as a reward for their support, are a discriminated group of people. And ofcourse the state is not a bedouine state even when they lived there before the zionist who have the state monopoly of, how shall I put this?, preffered ethnic group.
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔IPA35♔ View Post
    Palestinian Armenians have lived in Palestine for a very long time. They are a native group. The Druze seem indifferent because atleast now they are not prosecuted anymore by Arabs. That they now live in a country that is not for them even if they lived there far longer than the zionists is the lesser evil. The Bedouines, as a reward for their support, are a discriminated group of people. And ofcourse the state is not a bedouine state even when they lived there before the zionist who have the state monopoly of, how shall I put this?, preffered ethnic group.
    Err, where do you get that there are many Armenians living in Palestine? There's a sizeable Armenian population in Israel, with Israeli citizenship, that about 1/3 are associated with the Armenian quarter there, but after all the wars in that region and independence of Armenia most have left. Of course Armenians have been in the Holy Land for very long time (hence you have Armenian quarter there), but honestly I've never heard of many Armenians living in Palestine, maybe there's a tiny population, the remnants of the ancient Armenian population there, but most of that ancient population either is in Israel, or moved out.
    Last edited by Armenum; January 21, 2011 at 04:48 PM.
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    irontaino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    One state, neither Jewish or Arab, with equal rights for all seems the best way. Two states with equal-ish rights and constantly at each other's throats will only lead to more conflict.
    Last edited by irontaino; January 21, 2011 at 07:36 PM.
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    ♔Goodguy1066♔'s Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    One state, neither Jewish or Arab, with equal rights for all seems the best way. Two states with equal-ish rights and constantly at each other's throats will only lead to more conflict.
    No. That's ridiculous.
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    Both male and female walruses have tusks and have been observed using these overgrown teeth to help pull themselves out of the water.

    The mustached and long-tusked walrus is most often found near the Arctic Circle, lying on the ice with hundreds of companions. These marine mammals are extremely sociable, prone to loudly bellowing and snorting at one another, but are aggressive during mating season. With wrinkled brown and pink hides, walruses are distinguished by their long white tusks, grizzly whiskers, flat flipper, and bodies full of blubber.
    Walruses use their iconic long tusks for a variety of reasons, each of which makes their lives in the Arctic a bit easier. They use them to haul their enormous bodies out of frigid waters, thus their "tooth-walking" label, and to break breathing holes into ice from below. Their tusks, which are found on both males and females, can extend to about three feet (one meter), and are, in fact, large canine teeth, which grow throughout their lives. Male walruses, or bulls, also employ their tusks aggressively to maintain territory and, during mating season, to protect their harems of females, or cows.
    The walrus' other characteristic features are equally useful. As their favorite meals, particularly shellfish, are found near the dark ocean floor, walruses use their extremely sensitive whiskers, called mustacial vibrissae, as detection devices. Their blubbery bodies allow them to live comfortably in the Arctic region—walruses are capable of slowing their heartbeats in order to withstand the polar temperatures of the surrounding waters.
    The two subspecies of walrus are divided geographically. Atlantic walruses inhabit coastal areas from northeastern Canada to Greenland, while Pacific walruses inhabit the northern seas off Russia and Alaska, migrating seasonally from their southern range in the Bering Sea—where they are found on the pack ice in winter—to the Chukchi Sea. Female Pacific walruses give birth to calves during the spring migration north.
    Only Native Americans are currently allowed to hunt walruses, as the species' survival was threatened by past overhunting. Their tusks, oil, skin, and meat were so sought after in the 18th and 19th centuries that the walrus was hunted to extinction in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and around Sable Island, off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    One state, neither Jewish or Arab, with equal rights for all seems the best way. Two states with equal-ish rights and constantly at each other's throats will only lead to more conflict.
    Why should Israeli's and Palestinians suddenly be able to live peacefully in one state after 60 + years of conflict?

    I think a one state solution is pure fantasy.

  18. #18
    irontaino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    Might as well be one state since Israel will be dominating Palestine's affairs even after independence.
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    What are the chances of these Israeli's and Palestinians suddenly forgetting the last 60 years of violence?

    I'd say that's as realistic as saying Kosovo should join Serbia again. There's a great chance that it's just not going to work.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Palestinian-Israeli peace talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralle18 View Post
    What are the chances of these Israeli's and Palestinians suddenly forgetting the last 60 years of violence?
    It would be a mere improvement of the status quo though.
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