Is it true that Japan had the most advanced guns in the world during 1500s?

[CoconutFred]

Pretty self explanatory.

I've read about it quite a bit in posts in Europe vs. Asia threads or in things about Japanese weapons. It seems kinda weird because didn't the Portuguese give them the weapons int he first place?

[MemnonOfRhodes]

True,but if I am a Portuguese merchant with the best muskets in Europe and I sell them to the Japanese,then it could be true that Japan had advanced firearms,the best,I don't know,problem is that because the firearms were introduced,it was more difficult to develop without acquiring the latest technology.They would have to buy new weapons instead of improving them.

[Rolling Thunder]

Basically, no.

[empr guy]

well, once the shogunate or whatever they called it was formed, the countrys military progress practicly stopped, so that when admiral perry showed up with his warships the japanese practicly ed their pants.

Im a bit fuzzy on the dates though.

[american samurai]

The Japanese did certain things in regards to the arms they acquired which was advanced for the time, such as standardized sizes for their bullets, providing a rain cover so that they could be used in rain and how they trained squads to use these weapons among other advancements. The firearms they first received while they did come by way of the Portuguese were not Portuguese firearms. Here is a quote from Ian Bottomley on the were the Japanese guns came from originally and a couple of interesting pictures and one other good quote on the matter.

By a strange coincidence I have spent the day with a Prof of Chinese history discussing guns and other items. What you must realise is that although the gun was brought to Japan by the Portuguese, it wasn't a European gun they were carrying. In 1510 the Portuguese captured Goa and the arsenal there. After rounding up the workers, they set them to work making guns under German supervisors.Although it was a gun-making establishment, I suspect almost all of their production prior to the take-over was cannon. It was the Germans who introduce the notion of the snapping matchlock and I suspect the basic stock shape. If you examine guns from the Carnatic region, in particular from Kurg, the stock shape is weird, but can be visualised as being derived from the European petronel. These and the snapping mechanism being popular in Germany at this period. This basic gun moved eastwards with the Portuguese reaching Burma, China and ultimately Japan. Leaving aside local differences in ornamentation, they are the same guns. Chinese texts illustrate exactly this gun, complete with ornamental finial to the end of the lockplate, as do the Burmese guns and as do the two guns in Nagoya (which can be identified as Portuguese imports by the Indian style decoration and the Catholic ornament on the barrels). By this time, some 40 odd years, the butt shape had evolved into the familiar pistol-grip style we associate with Japanese guns (the same shape occurring on the guns illustrated by the Chinese - known by them as 'bird-beaked guns'). These snapping matchlocks did not take off in most of India - their guns being based on those carried by the Turks and Mamaluks who sent a force to India to help the Muslim maharajahs chuck the Portuguese out.

The two guns in Nagoya illustrate the two basic lock mechanisms adopted by the Japanese - that with an external spring and a pivoted sear poking through the lockplate, and those with a spiral spring and a sliding sear acting on a tumbler. The only contribution the Japanese seem to have made to these models was the simplification of the lockplate shape and the elimination of the screws - using tapered pins and mortices and tenons instead. The Nagoya gun with external spring is an early model with the mainspring being straight and attached to a secondary plate in front of the lock. The Chinese illustration shows this as a U shape and attached to the main plate like later Japanese guns so I don't think the Japanese actually came up with this idea.

It is a complicated story in which there are gaps. For example, a gun was brought to Osaka in 1510 from China and a few were made but it failed to catch on. Why? I don't know because there appears to be no illustration or description of it in either China or Japan. The Goan guns however spread like wildfire in Japan. Why was it so superior? again I don't really know but is suspect it was the fact that it had a decent barrel and could be sighted. Until more information comes to light it must reamin a bit of a mystery.
Ian Bottomley

Although handguns of Chinese manufacture had been known since 1510 the more sophisticated arquebus was first introduced to Japan by the Portuguese in 1543. The warlike Shimazu clan of Satsuma were the first to use this new firearm by virtue of the fact that the island the Portuguese traders shipwrecked on, called Tanegashima, was owned by them. In six years time Shimazu Takahisa was the first samurai general to conduct a battle using these weapons against the fortress of Kajiki in Osumi province. Samurai converts to Christianity also tended to use the arquebus although Shimazu Takahisa did not himself convert. Japanese swordsmiths now expanded their talents and began to mass-produce arquebuses.

Within two or three years, according to a Portuguese observer, the Japanese had succeeded in producing several hundred of these firearms and by the 1550s the arquebus was commonly deployed on the field of battle. Japanese gunsmiths founded schools to pass on this recently acquired knowledge and they even developed some improvements of their own over the European model. Unlike the European arquebus the Japanese version had bores standardised to only a few sizes so that it was easy to mass-produce the bullets. This enabled for bullets to be conveyed to the battlefield in huge quantities so that the arquebusier could be well supplied.

Although the technology and effect of the arquebus was realised the same could not be said for their use in battle. They were slow to reload and could always be outshot by archers who would also be more accurate. It was therefore necessary to train the users of arquebuses, the arquebusiers, properly but it still took time for them to be utilised to their fullest effect. Although it took a relatively short amount of time to train someone to use an arquebus - a great advantage over the longbow which required great strength to use - speed of loading had to be practiced, married to the discipline needed to successfully carry out bursts of volley fire that is one rank firing, followed by another whilst giving time for the first to reload and fire again, and so on. This would keep up an almost continuous rate of fire although usually with more than just two ranks. This meant that pride of place at the front of the battle would have to go to the ashigaru arquebuses which was traditionally the preserve of the samurai. But for firearms to be effective the guns had to be at the vanguard of the army. This social etiquette, however, wasn't followed by the warrior monks of the Ikko-ikki who were the first to use controlled volley fire on a mass scale in Japan five years before the battle of Nagashino. The warrior monks of Ishiyama Hongan-ji deployed 3,000 arquebusiers who forced the main body of Oda Nobunaga's army back after their fortress had come under attack. It comes as no surprise that Nobunaga should then use this volley fire tactic to such devastating effect at Nagashino five years later against the Takeda clan. The Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592 saw many thousands of arquebusiers being used in the campaign and the firearm became the most important weapon a soldier could take with him.

Ashigaru arquebusiers were under the command of an officer called a teppo ko gashira ('lieutenant of the firearms squad') and a firearms unit often comprised of five men with one archer. Another firearms officer called a ko gashira had command over a number of units, typically from one to several although this varied between each daimyo. The ko gashira was unmistakable in that he carried a long bamboo rod, lacquered in red, much like a swagger stick, and inside was kept a strong ramrod in case any gunner should break their own. An important duty allotted to this officer was the distribution of more bullets to the gunners. The bullets themselves were carried in a box on the back of an ashigaru and were then transferred to the bullet pouch at the arquebusiers' belts.

The arquebus could be fired from the shoulder and did not need to be mounted on a rest like the heavier musket. It consisted of an iron barrel fitted onto a wooden stock and on the right of the stock was a brass serpentine which was linked to a spring that dropped the serpentine when the trigger was pulled. The serpentine contained the ends of a smouldering match or fuse which dropped into the firing pan when the trigger was pulled and in turn ignited the priming gunpowder. The match itself was either wrapped around the stock of the gun or the arquebusier's wrist. To prevent premature explosions the pan was closed by a brass sliding cover which swung back at the last moment. When the pan was ignited and the bullet began its journey through the barrel to its target, the recoil was quite considerable as was the smoke produced. To reload the gunner poured some gunpowder down the barrel and rammed it down with a ramrod. Next the bullet was rammed home and then the firing process could start all over again.

But there were many considerations to keep in mind for an arquebusier. The weather could be a major factor as so often when it rained the fuse would get wet thus making the weapon unable to fire. To combat this fuses were boiled in a chemical solution or another idea was to have a small box fitted over the touch hole in effort to shelter it. Another problem was that ramrods could break so each arquebusier usually carried with him two or three spares. If these broke then the gunner could use the even sturdier version carried by the ko gashira. There was also the danger of fitting the fuse badly into the serpentine because the fire could go out. Usually an arquebusier carried a spare fuse if this happened. Another danger was the barrel becoming fouled and scorched after firing five or six shots. This meant that bullets could potentially get stuck and the rate of fire would suffer as a result. Sometimes the force of the explosion would dislodge the fuse and the Japanese attempted to solve this problem by inserting a small bamboo peg through. But this was very unsafe because the risk of a premature discharge was greatly increased. The only way to prevent this from happening was to remove the fuse completely.

Modern tests showed that a good gunman could load, prime, aim and fire in just fifteen seconds. However, the smouldering fuse had to be kept out of the way of the pan so this reduced the firing time between twenty and thirty seconds. An inexperienced gunner could only hope to complete the sequence in one minute. The introduction of cartridges greatly improved the rate fire. To aid firing in the dark the top end of the stock was fitted with a length of cord so that the arquebusier could gauge the elevation.

Battle probably began with the opposing arquebusiers exchanging fire to a range of approximately one hundred metres under the command of their respective teppo kashira who would himself be under the command of the samurai in charge of all the ashigaru companies, the ashigaru taisho. He would be the forward most officer and would be in the best position to judge whether enough damage had been caused or the enemy was disorientated sufficiently for a charge to be ordered. The arquebusiers would themselves be augmented by archers who would loose their bows when the gunners were reloading. If the order was given to charge the ashigaru spearmen would advance along with the samurai, most of whom would probably be mounted. The author of the Zohyo Monogatari (a book written in 1649 about ashigaru warfare) writes that if the enemy came close the arquebusiers should divide up to right and left to let the ashigaru spearmen through. Then the arquebusiers should sheathe their guns and enter the fray.

[micheljq]

Thank you very nice and informative. Can I give +1 rep for American samurai?

[american samurai]

Three good books on the subject of Samurai firearms.>

THE JAPANESE MATCHLOCK
in English, color printing, 60 pages: $100- A lot of good pictures, I just got a signed copy direct from the author.
http://www.japaneseweapons.net/sonota/hon/english.htm

And another one is >Tanegashima-The Arrival of Europe in Japan [Paperback]
Olof G. Lidin (Author), I found a used paperback copy of this book for around $30 used. No pictures, just a lot of detailed history on the arrival of firearms in Japan. http://www.amazon.com/Tanegashima-Ar...mm_pap_title_0

Along with> Giving Up the Gun: Japan's Reversion to the Sword, 1543-1879 [Paperback] Noel Perrin http://www.amazon.com/Giving-Up-Gun-.../dp/0879237732
Which you can buy for around $10

These three books are enough to make you an expert on the subject.

[Furious Mental]

Perhaps Japanese guns were not so advanced as European muskets, but tactically they were very forward thinking. The ratio of guns in some Japanese armies was very high, two thirds to three quarters, especially in Korea and in the armies of daimyo who had served there. So they had well and truly shifted to the view that firepower was the battle winning element.

[CoconutFred]

Thanks guys, some very interesting info here.

[Dodge]

This thread is racist.

[shikken]

I believe that's worth noting a few overlook aspects of Japanese matchlocks. First off all they had gun sights which improved accuracy and not merely large and significant fore sights but also middle sights and rear sights. I'm not sure if the Japanese were the first to invent sights but sights seem absent on arquebuses and only appear to have been added to Napoleon era muskets and as far as I can see they're only foresights (at the end of the barrel business end) and rather small and hard to see. I might be mistaken.

Another thing about tanegashima is that the barrels are apparently double or triple wrapped in a spiral formation which introduces multiple seams. Typical barrels only have one seam like a spine that's prone to bursting, the tanegashima design appears to fix this.

Finally tanegashima are lacquered like Japanese armor which improves their durability and resistance to rust.

[Gandalfus]

This thread is racist.

Just no.

[shikken]

I suppose it also depends on which part of the 1500s we're talking about. Around the beginning some Japanese had old Chinese fire lances and matchlocks, around the 1550s Japanese guns could probably be rightly called knock-offs but by 1570 and onwards at least until the mid 1600s Japanese guns were probably superior until flintlocks came along shortly thereafter.

I do also wonder about artillery. Japan for instance had superior breech-loader swivel guns some of which reached culverin size the longest being 2.88m and fired shot of about 4 kg. Apparently they needed several guys and rope cranes to lift the chambers though (since they apparently weighed over 100 kg!) but it fired really fast for a gun its size. Apparently just one daimyo had hundreds of these. Around 1600 though Tokugawa started building and buying cannons like crazy, English cannon maker Richard Cooks for instance noted that a Dutch foundry in Hirado produce bronze and cast iron cannons of equal quality to those in Europe (Christiandom as he put it) but at half the price. Though I'm sure how much input the Japanese had in this, his description of it seems to suggest entirely Japanese workers and foremen with direction from Dutch teachers.

I know in Sakai they produce some 300 iron cannons in just few years for Osaka and if the number of potential cannon bearing ships before 1635 is any indication Japan made have had as many as 2000 or more cannons.

On another note Japan was the major supplier of copper for bronze cannons at the time, cannon made with Japanese copper were regarded as the cheapest and finest of the time greatly enhancing Japan's importance.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Many Japanese were importing guns and cannons from China, which were of lesser quality. Many guns were also made in Japan, which were of lesser quality than the European ones but better than the Chinese ones. The ratio of guns in an army was definitely better than the amount of guns that Ottomans and European nations at the time (as most of Europe in the 1500's had a high amount of crossbows and bows as did the Ottomans). While the Japanese were using more guns and limiting the bows to elite units.
Although it definitely seems as though the Japanese had superior matchlock tactics when it came to pitched battles and sieges than did Europeans; although the same cannot be said for artillery as the Ottomans and Europeans definitely were superior in artillery use. Certainly though, the Japanese put greater emphasis on accuracy than did the Europeans and they also invented volley fire in order to increase rate of fire.

[Gandalfus]

Except they banned firearms shortly after.

[shikken]

Except they banned firearms shortly after.

I think restricted is the more apt term and in this case restricted to the shogun. 200 confirmed gunsmiths were working in Edo by the time Matthew Perry showed up and Sakai was still the shogun's choice gun supplier. Interestingly enough gun research did continue albeit in somewhat unusual fashion. For instance the matchlock remained the prime choice of ignition but they made 6 shot revolvers, 6-shot rifle, 3-shot carbines, rifled their matchlock barrels and even created a huge gun that fired 3.75 kg shots. I think I even remember an experimental breech-loaded matchlock rifle but without practical application guns they invented tended to be more gimmicky than practical.

After Matthew Perry showed up they even started replacing matchlock mechanisms with flintlocks. Flintlocks were actually around in Japan for quite a while but for reasons that escape me they only used them as smoking pipe lighters. Smoking pipe lighters!

[rekishiotaku]

I think restricted is the more apt term and in this case restricted to the shogun. 200 confirmed gunsmiths were working in Edo by the time Matthew Perry showed up and Sakai was still the shogun's choice gun supplier. Interestingly enough gun research did continue albeit in somewhat unusual fashion. For instance the matchlock remained the prime choice of ignition but they made 6 shot revolvers, 6-shot rifle, 3-shot carbines, rifled their matchlock barrels and even created a huge gun that fired 3.75 kg shots. I think I even remember an experimental breech-loaded matchlock rifle but without practical application guns they invented tended to be more gimmicky than practical.

After Matthew Perry showed up they even started replacing matchlock mechanisms with flintlocks. Flintlocks were actually around in Japan for quite a while but for reasons that escape me they only used them as smoking pipe lighters. Smoking pipe lighters!

You are right about guns not being banned. Domains were given restrictions on guns, I don't know how exactly it worked though. But domains like Satsuma and others on the coast had cannons placed on the shores, especially during the mid 18th century to keep foreigners at bay.
I know the Japanese scholars would have been aware of developments in Europe from Dejima and the Rangaku (Dutch Learning) the fields of medicine/biology and mechanics were of particular interest. The Karakuri ningyou animated dolls rivaled contemporary dolls in Europe. Of course all this knowledge was not wide spread, the vast majority of people were commoners who the state tried to keep dumb down, and many in the samurai class were uninterested with the West, and basic economics for that matter.

I don't know much about Japanese advancements in guns during the Edo period, but it makes sense they would have experimented with the technologies. Japanese culture is full of taking things from other cultures and improving upon it.

Pictures of Dutch Learning manuscripts:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Medical books


Voltair's Battery

Hot air balloons

Do you have any pictures of Japanese rifles of the Edo period?

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Until Oda Nobunaga most if not all (except for the Mori which had some) of the cannons were "made in China" (literally). It was Nobunaga that reformed this and began to use ONLY the highest quality cannons and matchlocks of both Japanese and European workmanship, all the Chinese and poor quality Japanese firearms were mostly given to vassals or thrown away.
The Japanese did not master the cannon the way that the Europeans and Ottomans did, but put them to great effect at Osaka (Nobunaga also wanted to use some of his new cannons at Tedorigawa, on Kenshin, to make Kenshin move but it started to rain. Thus the field use for cannons were mostly limited to only sieges). The Japanese probably used cannons to their greatest effect at sea.

[shikken]

The shogunate maintained gun control the same way it maintained all other kinds of control. With censors known as metsuke, spies and surprise levies to keep domain wealth down. Unlicensed gun possession and production carried some of the highest penalties not limited to land confiscation and complete clan extermination.

Here's a link with pictures of some antique edo period guns, most experimental as far as I can tell.

http://www.japanese-guns.com/master_...n_catalog.html

Osaka was more of a psychological case than a physical one; the defenders were worn down by the stress of constant cannon fire rather than actual damage or injury cause by cannonballs. Japanese castles are actually close to immune to cannon fire that's not explosive and lobbed in very high mortar arcs thanks to fact that their walls are basically hills held up by dry stone walls. Only a few lucky shots fired at low angles from long ranges that went over the walls actually hit anything meaningful in the castle, as a matter of extreme luck one of them just happened to Lady Yodo's tea room while she was in it. Hence cannons with the exception of antipersonnel breech-loaders were never popular with the Japanese because they weren't very useful. The Shimabara rebellion provides an even better example of just how useless siege cannons actually are against Japanese castles. 2 Dutch ships and a few Japanese batteries unloaded 426 rounds for 15 days and did next to the nothing to the castle.

Japan never much used cannon on ships either as the Imjin War aptly proved. Except perhaps with the near legendary o-atakebune which is described by Portuguese accounts as equal to a European ship in armament and many of the shogunate red seal ships which had 6 to 8 guns and maybe numbered at 350 ships; that's around 2450 potential cannon close to that of the Spanish Armada.

[rekishiotaku]

Thanks for the link, they are some interesting guns. I used to think when I saw that kind of stuff in manga it was just artistic license. I particularly like this one:
http://www.japanese-guns.com/master_guns/images/7.html