Ok does Israel have a legal right to exist?

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

First and foremost i am neither an holocaust denier nor an Anti Semite and i want to keep this free from both sides screaming abuse at each other or bible bashers supporting the modern state of Israel on purely pseudo historical, and maybe political,pretexts or theological grounds...

I want to keep this in the VV rather than the Mudpit or even, god forbid, the Ethos Mores et Monastica or whatever they call it.

Here are the facts from my point of view. I support Palestine as a nation, as i believe Chile has recently, and i believe the annexation of their lands is almost as bad as the Rhineland or Northern Ireland when the majority wish to remain independent or just plain in another country. I regard the modern state of Israel as a pseudo Third Reich, which ironically enough has gangs of Jewish Neo Nazis beating up other Jews for some weird ass reason, which treated the native's of Palestine almost as badly the Reich did to the Slavs et cetera. I see the formentation and embryonic state of Israel as a manipulation of the post Holocaust cold feet the British felt after the Second World War and ironically enough Israel seems to be treated as the 53rd state by America and they follow in granddaddy's footsteps in segregating and brutalizing the native population for no discernable reason other than fear of well deserved reprisals... I dont know about you if an invader was standing in my cities streets, just like any other patriot, and to use a phrase of William Pitt( i dont hate the British personally... Just our bitter history) that describes the American civil war,
“If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was landed in my country, I never would lay down my arms -- never! never! never!”


and the same is true of the modern tensions in Palestine... At least the Americans had access to medical supplies and could rebuild their country after the siege of New York was over. The seizing of the Golan Heights could be viewed as illegal but i can see the Israelites point of views that it prevents rocket attacks on Israeli settlements near the border and perhaps in this case Vae Victus but has the war actually been declared over? Im not quite sure about that and be sure to inform me if possible

Finally on a closing remark i make no pretensions to being an expert here. My interest lies solely in the Classical era and to an extent the Byzantines and through some rather luck im writing this on an old laptop that has trouble running firefox and is actually a friends so dont expect speedy replies from yours truly... And please keep it courteous. I dont want a jihad called down on me or Mossad knocking on my door

[removeduser_4536284751384]

53rd state? Isreal has a legal right to exist because its neighbours recognise it. Even if they didn't it can enforce its independence with military force, which is all that matters.

The majority of NI wants to remain the union according to the most recent polls on the constitutional status of NI.

Anyway, I have a question, why can't the one state solution work?

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

53rd state? Isreal has a legal right to exist because its neighbours recognise it. Even if they didn't it can enforce its independence with military force, which is all that matters.

The majority of NI wants to remain the union according to the most recent polls on the constitutional status of NI.

Anyway, I have a question, why can't the one state solution work?

Tell that to the people who got thrown into slums simply for living on land that has been theirs for over millenia Im sure if right were right that could work but the hatred runs too deep... Its even worse than Northern Ireland during the height of the troubles. And which of its neighbours actually recognise israel legality? I was always under the impression its only allies were Turkey and their Pro EU stance.

At least we had sanitation on the more... Green grass roots side of the divide. And too be honest im not too sure we can reliably consult Northern Irelands voting. Or was Gerrymandering a figment of my imagination? Also opinion pools are always biased and according to the consensus we are actually out breeding the Protestants and in five years the Nationalist elements would be of voting age to swing the majority the right way. Not that we have the economy or the military to take in the economic black hole that Northern Ireland could bring with em. Also do you really think the baggers and the other paramilitaries are up to fighting the PSNI and the Loyalists.

Isnt Hawaii and Britain regarded as the 52'nd and 51st states?

P.S.

Jews like to live in the state of Israel. Arabs like to live in the state of Israel. Where's the problem again?

Are you for ing serial!? I dunno a complete and utter blockade on palestine including medicine and the illegality of rebuilding your house when your countries are under siege? Or how about being thrown off your land? It's even worse than the dispossesions of the Indians and the Irish and Scottish from their land!

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Isnt Hawaii and Britain regarded as the 52'nd and 51st states

Hawaii is the actual 50th state.

Tell that to the people who got thrown into slums simply for living on land that has been theirs for over millenia

Such as who?

And which of its neighbours actually recognise israel legality? I was always under the impression its only allies were Turkey and their Pro EU stance.

Every country that borders them. Egypt was helping them to blockade Gaza.

according to the consensus we are actually out breeding the Protestants and in five years the Nationalist elements would be of voting age to swing the majority the right way.

Great whatever you say, but that's not the case now.

Are you for ing serial!? I dunno a complete and utter blockade on palestine including medicine and the illegality of rebuilding your house when your countries are under siege? Or how about being thrown off your land? It's even worse than the dispossesions of the Indians and the Irish and Scottish from their land!

Terrorists in gaza firing rockes at Isreal cities.

Solution: Blockade gaza and allow in only good that can't be used to make missiles. They tried to just kill the rocket launchers with helicopters but you didn't like that either.

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

"Peace is priceless, but not at any price."
And while i enjoy political discourse there is no clear division between history and diplomacy. Its all connected especially in this rather emotionally charged subject... Then again if this ain't your opinion feel free to throw it into the Mudpit but i really dont want to get savaged in there Or bring out the nationalists... While im sure the nationalist's would rain me in rep i really couldnt care less and i see this as a more historical debate. I can bring up the rather rotten foundations of Israel if requested and ill whack it into my OP

Hawaii is the actual 50th state.

Such as who?

Every country that borders them. Egypt was helping them to blockade Gaza.

Great whatever you say, but that's not the case now.

Terrorists in gaza firing rockes at Isreal cities.

Solution: Blockade gaza and allow in only good that can't be used to make missiles. They tried to just kill the rocket launchers with helicopters but you didn't like that either.

Im not American and nor do i worship it as a second or third genration emigrant. I dont have your simplistic world view and i am aware of Egypts subservient role to the Allies since the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. Please bring some facts to the table regarding the census figures and i shall try to reciprocate I suppose you probably love the Russians for their destruction of Georgia over South Ossetia cos it had more cool splosions and bigger tanks and ... Or you harbor anti Russian feelings due to a fear of the sleeping bear

Also please tell me your honestly not serious as to who actually got thrown into slums? Can you get your info anywhere other than FOX NEWS please?

Call the wambulance

Look what state does have the right to exist? Would that be the USA build of all the dead native American polities that existed before or Egypt built on how many different change of government by force. The Isrealies have kicked ass and taken names and armed themselves to the teeth and have walked the diplomatic line better that their opponents for decades. So hell yes they have right to exist because they have out negotiated and out fought and out developed all their rivals... Does that suck sure if you on the losing side, sure - but join the club history is full of also-ran whining losing losers

So win a political or military battle... The world is frankly not a nice place. I don't means to be glib or trivial but that facts are the facts. Most people for most of history have have been screwed. To the extent you are not in that group now usually means someone (or rather most people) is getting shafted for you benefit.
Israel has carved out it s place in the world with a load of military victories and effective political maneuvering - you might not like its but frankly it opponents have been comparability inept corrupt and ineffective.

Every nation state has a right to exist... If it fights on its own two legs, doesn't manipulate its contemporaries and i think modern Nation States are held to highter standards than during the era of enlightenment dont you? This isn't god's will here this is abuse and pseudo genocide out of fear of retaliation. The disgusting ways in which the Native Americans, well maybe not the Aztecs as the culture while great and noble was still seriously messed up, were an attrocity that i sincerely hope wont be repeated... This isn't Bosnia and im not out to make enemies. Im truly looking for sincere answers rather than slander and rascism here!

So win a political or military battle... The world is frankly not a nice place. I don't means to be glib or trivial but that facts are the facts. Most people for most of history have have been screwed. To the extent you are not in that group now usually means someone (or rather most people) is getting shafted for you benefit.
Israel has carved out it s place in the world with a load of military victories and effective political maneuvering - you might not like its but frankly it opponents have been comparability inept corrupt and ineffective.

Oh god i admire your existentially disotopian outlook and maybe i can be soo Nihilstic some day but not quite now. As i said already Vae Victus and all that but we kind of do live in a more civilized world... Here in Western Europe. I can't comment on the Americas or the Middle East cos its like talking about the Tamil Tigers. Im not bemoaning globalization here. And my people were the es for the past 800 years so please read between the lines if at all possible. Im not a barstool republican either and lets try to keep this civil please? I know my underwear, jeans, leatherjacket and converse were made in either a Vietnamese, Chinese or Indian sweatshop but thats not the point... Maybe we'll get to live in a better world someday but i cant really ignore the plight of others... Some people love apathy except when it comes to their countries advancement or criticism of the almighty dollar but i see it as a poison in this modern, and probably post and pre- modern world and its purely repellant in my eyes!

P.S. Thats kind of what i was looking for kiddo's!

I think the mod hand has been to heavy of late - the topic is both reasonable and historical - since the question of Israel is well over 50 years old.

In all honesty I have to say I object to the short moderator leash I see being thrown around lately, you hammer those who cannot answer there own questions in a history form and demand much to much of the general VV not the sub forms...

What discussion of history does not invovle morality, law and such - is not a discussion of WW2 or the Peloponnesian War likely to turn on the morality or Ethics or legality of the day often?

On this note how does one go about getting into the other VV that i can't see or is it a secret? How many hoops will i have to jump through?

P.S. Soz for the double post! Can someone merge it with my prior post cos i just kind of jumped at the opportunity

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Im not American and nor do i worship it as a second or third genration emigrant. Can you get your info anywhere other than FOX NEWS please?

My family has been here in Mayo and Roscommon for literally countless generations, before even the Normans ever arrived. The male line can be traced back to early christian Ireland. My name is Irish for "shoe maker", you should be able to work it out if you're Irish. I bet I'm more Irish than you are.

I suppose you probably love the Russians for their destruction of Georgia over South Ossetia cos it had more cool splosions and bigger tanks and ... Or you harbor anti Russian feelings due to a fear of the sleeping bear

South Ossetia launched a sudden, unprovoked attack on Russia to try and make selfish territorial gains. Russia just destroyed their army and inflicted no lasting damage on them.

I dont have your simplistic world view and i am aware of Egypts subservient role to the Allies since the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire.

They recognise Isreal of their own accord. Islamic terrorists are also a threat to them.

In fact, the two countries in the world most affected by Islamic terrrism are probably Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

Also please tell me your honestly not serious as to who actually got thrown into slums?

Please tell me.

[High Chunker Greens]

Isnt Hawaii and Britain regarded as the 52'nd and 51st states?

U MAD? We won't bow to our own colonists!

Not yet at least. Won't be long though...

[athanaric]

Jews like to live in the state of Israel. Arabs like to live in the state of Israel. Where's the problem again?

[conon394]

Call the wambulance

Look what state does have the right to exist? Would that be the USA build of all the dead native American polities that existed before or Egypt built on how many different change of government by force. The Isrealies have kicked ass and taken names and armed themselves to the teeth and have walked the diplomatic line better that their opponents for decades. So hell yes they have right to exist because they have out negotiated and out fought and out developed all their rivals... Does that suck sure if you on the losing side, sure - but join the club history is full of also-ran whining losing losers

Are you for ing serial!? I dunno a complete and utter blockade on palestine including medicine and the illegality of rebuilding your house when your countries are under siege? Or how about being thrown off your land? It's even worse than the dispossesions of the Indians and the Irish and Scottish from their land!

So win a political or military battle... The world is frankly not a nice place. I don't means to be glib or trivial but that facts are the facts. Most people for most of history have have been screwed. To the extent you are not in that group now usually means someone (or rather most people) is getting shafted for you benefit.
Israel has carved out it s place in the world with a load of military victories and effective political maneuvering - you might not like its but frankly it opponents have been comparability inept corrupt and ineffective.

[Viking Prince]

If this is to remain within VV, this must be a discussion of history and not philosophy of law or moral authority of states, etc.

VP

[hellheaven1987]

I miss the good old Achaemenid Empire - may be we should bring that back.

[conon394]

Every nation state has a right to exist... If it fights on its own two legs, doesn't manipulate its contemporaries and i think modern Nation States are held to highter standards than during the era of enlightenment dont you? This isn't god's will here this is abuse and pseudo genocide out of fear of retaliation. The disgusting ways in which the Native Americans, well maybe not the Aztecs as the culture while great and noble was still seriously messed up, were an attrocity that i sincerely hope wont be repeated... This isn't Bosnia and im not out to make enemies. Im truly looking for sincere answers rather than slander and rascism here!

I think you mistake my point. What current nation state does not rest on the death and conquest of some other polity - often in the most bleak way. Did all those Roman women raped back in the day volunteer when Rome collapsed? I don't recall the invitation that was sent to the Mohammedans from Byzantine to conquer most of their polity or from Persia or the same to Genghis.

Right is what you can enforce and hold and what others let you or allow as such Israel has very much the right to exist because it won that right on the battle field and has not lost it yet. and It retains and bought,achieved by theft, or developed its trump card to that effect - the Samson option.

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

I think you mistake my point. What current nation state does not rest on the death and conquest of some other polity - often in the most bleak way. Did all those Roman women raped back in the day volunteer when Rome collapsed? I don't recall the invitation that was sent to the Mohammedans from Byzantine to conquer most of their polity or from Persia or the same to Genghis.

Yeah. Just as the USA have the right to exist.

We live in a more civilized world and your apathy is truly astounding. That is the days of old and i truly hope you dont believe the same mores apply to us today as they did thousands of years ago man... And i sincerely hope you dont join the army if that is the case!

Do you see human sacrifice as truly acceptable?

I respect both of you but please stop bringing up completely different time periods. I dont fight with a bloody doru and aspis and my uniform is hardly as respendent as a linothorax breast plate nor do i wear a wig and fire in unison with my fire team. Different times different mores and most of all people. Im not saying i believe were all hippies here and i have met some of the scum of the earth but still... Seriously? Its unjustafiable by postmodern sensibilities...

P.S.STOP EDITING YOUR POSTS CONON! YOUR GIVING ME A HEADACHE! OR AT LEAST SAY WHEN YOU DO SO I CAN CHECK IT AGAIN!

Right is what you can enforce and hold and what others let you or allow as such Israel has very much the right to exist because it won that right on the battle field and has not lost it yet. and It retains and bought,achieved by theft, or developed its trump card to that effect - the Samson option.

You have a valid point but again were not discussing slayer lyrics here man... Every child that is thrust into poverty is seen as a failure, at least on my part, because he cant go to school. While war is intriguing and all its not the only form of history and politocal theory. Might isnt right nowadays. America could take over the world but do you have the right too? Greece could have destroyed Istanbul post world war one but it didnt have the right... Heaping injustice upon injustice does not make it better man... I know this is the total war forum lads but seriously? No one else believes in the milk of kindness? Am i all alone here?

[Entropy Judge]

Do you see human sacrifice as truly acceptable?

I don't see a problem with it.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Yeah. Just as the USA have the right to exist.

[Nik]

Dude, you should maybe take some care how you word your posts.

First and foremost i am neither an holocaust denier nor an Anti Semite and i want to keep this free from both sides screaming abuse at each other or bible bashers supporting the modern state of Israel on purely pseudo historical, and maybe political,pretexts or theological grounds...

Fine, but I've seen to many threads by Amagi et al that began in the same vein "I'm not an antisemite but ..." followed by some more or less borderline holocaust/world conspiracy/jews are evil rant, and lo and behold:

I regard the modern state of Israel as a pseudo Third Reich, which ironically enough has gangs of Jewish Neo Nazis beating up other Jews for some weird ass reason, which treated the native's of Palestine almost as badly the Reich did to the Slavs et cetera.

it goes in the direction I expected.
(little side remark, I read about one NeoNazi attack series in isreal, and the perpetators were recent immigrants from russia. You see, when Russians can prove they have jewish ancestors and are therefore jewish, they get the jewish citizenship. In that case, the newly recovered jews had some really ed up kids connected to russian Neo-Nazi groups (not that that isn't ironic as well)).

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

In order of interest and maybe sequentially... I havent decided yet. How am i the only here with these views! WHERE ARE MY ANARCHIST/ BOLSHEVIK COMRADES!

Dude, you should maybe take some care how you word your posts.

Fine, but I've seen to many threads by Amagi et al that began in the same vein "I'm not an antisemite but ..." followed by some more or less borderline holocaust/world conspiracy/jews are evil rant, and lo and behold:

it goes in the direction I expected.
(little side remark, I read about one NeoNazi attack series in isreal, and the perpetators were recent immigrants from russia. You see, when Russians can prove they have jewish ancestors and are therefore jewish, they get the jewish citizenship. In that case, the newly recovered jews had some really ed up kids connected to russian Neo-Nazi groups (not that that isn't ironic as well)).

Ok i seriously am NOT an anti semite! I have fecking Jewish ancestry on my mothers side so i amn't a self hating Jew either. I have strong views and for some(mysterious) reason i find myself rooting for the underdog everytime i read about them... Hell i admire the Maccabean revolt for Christ's sake!

Also thanks for the info Its always nice to learn something new in this debate and it always bugged me why slavs, never mind Isrealites, would worship their oppressors.

Without going any further into the subject and all it's complexities. The state of Israel was created by an act of the UN, thus as far as international law goes Israel has a right to exist, regardless of whether it's neighbours recognise it. Besides most of them do these days aside from Syria, Iran and maybe Iraq? I'm not entirely sure on whether Iraq recognised Israel back in the 50's and 60's when it was under the British boot.

Ok while i do love what the UN stands for i dont really take it seriously... To my eyes it's a rather apt mirror of how the late Republican Era of Rome kind of gorged itself to death on needless votes, countless elections and not very incorruptable officials... The prosecution of Gaius Verres seems rather adroit to me in this case and im not trying to make any imperial symettry here that simply dont exist... Ya know other than to the biggest fish in the pond which is definitely isnt even located on our continent

Really we do? Have you ever known anyone with a happy Nazi number tattooed on their arm? Those that do you as you might expect have bit different view of the world often or what is needed to be safe.

Again does that justify any action by Israel - no, but it should at minimal be considered when thinking about the thoughts of it leaders up to at least the last generation or so

Yeah i have but it was through a mutual acquaintence and to be honest i couldnt have been more uncomfortable in my life seeing as they were skinheads, admittedly the best tatooist in Dublin but still scary 's, and i was forced to make banter with them while they gawked at my nose... Not something i would like to repeat and as i said there is still a large proportion of scum on this earth and i was kind of unwillingly linked with him, call it savior syndrome when i saw someone getting bullied for what in my opinion was a perfectly resonable hypothesis on the First World War, and i really dont want a repeat of it... I believe in the milk of human kindness... But there are always those who would sour it is all im going to say on that matter. Just out of curiousity what was that darling number Neo Nazis associate with aryanism? 66 or something? Just out of idle curiousity and nothing else

My family has been here in Mayo and Roscommon for literally countless generations, before even the Normans ever arrived. The male line can be traced back to early christian Ireland. My name is Irish for "shoe maker", you should be able to work it out if you're Irish. I bet I'm more Irish than you are.

South Ossetia launched a sudden, unprovoked attack on Russia to try and make selfish territorial gains. Russia just destroyed their army and inflicted no lasting damage on them.

They recognise Isreal of their own accord. Islamic terrorists are also a threat to them.

In fact, the two countries in the world most affected by Islamic terrrism are probably Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

Please tell me.

Brogue something? i havent touched my native tongue in years...
Ok please dont patronise me Mayo man... Your no more Irish than i am and if your claiming to be descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages hes basically the Genghis Khan of Ireland so excuse me if im not impressed... If you really must know my father was, and is descended from King Sitric, well its an anglicisation of the name, and my family has lived in Sligo since the pale was invented so spare me the superior culchie act. Google it and if you dont believe me ill give you a gooch at my Hereditary records if your that nosy. Im second generation Dub if you really wanna know and im rather sure i can stomp you in a debate due to your childish spoutings please dont start because i dance rings around incoherrent boggers in Trinity who claim to be Sinn Féiners on a daily basis. And if thats you John im gonna deck you on Monday for being soo ignorant.

Your information is actualy BS relating to the recent Georgo-Russo conflict so try getting info else where than Sky News... I know its great having satellite down there but 9 tenths of satellite is propaganda man.

Spare me the lecture on the large Coptic Christian sect in Egypt as our massive WAR ON TERROR is kind of similar to Mc Carthysm... A certain country needs a pretext to invade another less backwards country that has something shiny it wants, in Afghanistan its diamonds, gold and a whole heap of minerals that were completely unheard of until two years ago... Until ya know the Soviets knew it, the British knew it and i think the Achaemenids might even have known it and if you wanna get onto Iraq i might actually have to meet you in person to school you on the birds and the bees mate And i know Saudi Arabia, while almost the originator of Islam, is not its most devout follower, thank you Brunei, and believe it or not one of my best mates is a Sunni Muslim!

Dont try and trick me either... We both know who the Palestinians were and they didn't scatter the Jews to the corners of the earth... The Abrahammic religions were not persecuted like "Pagan religions" were by the Caliphs or even the Ottomans as they were seen as kind of essential and a large proportion of Palestinians, this is baseless conjecture on my part, were probably of Semitic origin

There have been human sacrifices in almost every state.
For example, USA was doing the same thing against the Indians.
The only difference here is that Israel is a very young country and the required sacrifices are in the making.

Wait what!? When did the Americans sacrifice slave? And i know all about the triumphs, the dark origins of hellenic sacrifices but you never cease to amaze me at times Also the Gallic and African slave are a rather original, if horrible, late example of human sacrifice in Western Europe that wasn't pure drivel in my opinion...Unless your getting at a Horatian Dulce est decorum est pro patri amori(my spelling is horrible but im tired and there is soo much to cover and i want to get through it as fast as possible) and the deaths of the young are caused by the greed/ indignence/ schemes of the few... And if soo bravo!

I don't see a problem with it.

Entropy Judge... Please dont judge me but i think im falling in love with you man... I was having this huge discussion with my mates earlier on today actually and i proposed we should sacrifice a human to the dark god Moloch, or maybe Nemesis, to try and ease Ireland's financial situation... Your opinion would be greatly appreciated and my friend was making the point that we should sacrifice a ginger, as they have no souls, but i am of the opinion that this wouldn't be enough as we would merely be sacrificing an empty vessal. If you want i could pay for your flight over to Ireland so you could preside over the sacrifice per sé and perhaps help us interpret the remains and composition of his organs... Any help would be greatly appreciated and an opinion would suffice i suppose

[Londinium]

Without going any further into the subject and all it's complexities. The state of Israel was created by an act of the UN, thus as far as international law goes Israel has a right to exist, regardless of whether it's neighbours recognise it. Besides most of them do these days aside from Syria, Iran and maybe Iraq? I'm not entirely sure on whether Iraq recognised Israel back in the 50's and 60's when it was under the British boot.

[conon394]

We live in a more civilized world and your apathy is truly astounding. That is the days of old and i truly hope you dont believe the same mores apply to us today as they did thousands of years ago man... And i sincerely hope you dont join the army if that is the case!

Really we do? Have you ever known anyone with a happy Nazi number tattooed on their arm? Those that do you as you might expect have bit different view of the world often or what is needed to be safe.

Again does that justify any action by Israel - no, but it should at minimal be considered when thinking about the thoughts of it leaders up to at least the last generation or so

[HansDuet]

As much as any other state does.