The Problem of Evil, Free Will and Heaven

[Astaroth]

This is something I've wondered about for a while. The Problem of Evil is a hotly debated topic and in order to find an 'explanation', theists often refer to the "Free Will" of humans. As in, humans have the ability to choose between doing good and evil which is the main reason for all the suffering in the world.

However, I wonder how this fits together with the idea of Heaven. Heaven is usually considered as a place without evil. Therefore, the following scenarios are possible:

1. There is no evil in heaven but also no free will. However, that means that free will is apparently not that desirable after all and it raises the question why we even have free will in the first place.
2. Both evil and free will exist in heaven. However, what is it that makes it preferable to our world then?
3. There is free will in heaven but no suffering.

#3 seems like the most plausible choice based on the Christian belief. However, that obviously proves that there can be both free will and no suffering. Therefore, using the free will theory as an explanation for the suffering in the world doesn't really seem to work out.

Thoughts?

[Biggreenfellow]

It seems to me that the theist argument is that because we have free will, we choose for evil. Heaven, in that case, would have to be a place where we can choose, but none of the choices can lead to evil. I have no idea how that would work, though.

[Makrell]

I would think it is that onl the people who dont choose evil go to heaven, so none of the "evil" go there cause they go to hell

[Biggreenfellow]

I would think it is that onl the people who dont choose evil go to heaven, so none of the "evil" go there cause they go to hell

What is to stop these good people from choosing evil in Heaven, then?

[xcorps]

What is to stop these good people from choosing evil in Heaven, then?

There is no conundrum. The answer is found in scripture.

Revelations 21:
4: And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

27: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[Astaroth]

I would think it is that onl the people who dont choose evil go to heaven, so none of the "evil" go there cause they go to hell

But in the bible it says, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone at her." John 8:7

That (and other parts of the bible) make it quite obvious that humans can't be without sin. The only being without sin is God.

And since sinning = not following God's wishes = doing evil, humans can never be completely free of evil. Even people who do lots of good things are not free of evil.

Therefore, if heaven somehow allows people to always decide against evil, then heaven must have conditions that are different from earth, because apparently humans on earth can never be completely free of sinning. And that raises the question why those conditions that make it possible for people to have free will yet never do evil don't exist on earth.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

I would think it is that onl the people who dont choose evil go to heaven, so none of the "evil" go there cause they go to hell

there's no such thing as an "evil" person.

Even Hitler believed what he was doing was morally right.

[Fev]

I think the imagination of us going to heaven in a state that is comparable to our lives is not a very plausible one. If there is something like heaven, then I think it will be far away from our conventions and perceptions. Free will is a human perception, so I think it just won't matter.

[SigniferOne]

Just because man has free will doesn't mean that he necessarily has a chance of doing evil with it. God has free will too, but there is no possibility for evil there. Evil comes from corrupt nature, not from free will itself. So on the heaven question, it has nothing to do with free will or anything like that; the reborn nature will not do evil.

[Astaroth]

There is no conundrum. The answer is found in scripture.

Revelations 21:
4: And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

27: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

And why didn't God do that on earth as well?

Just because there is free will doesn't mean that he will necessarily do evil. God has free will too, but there is no possibility for evil there. Evil comes from corrupt nature, not from free will itself.

But according to the Christian beliefs, it is impossible for humans not to sin (as far as I know at least). However, apparently it is possible for humans not to sin in Heaven. That makes me wonder why God didn't create the earth with the same conditions that make it possible for Heaven to be without sin.

Also, if you're talking about the "corrupt nature" of humans, wouldn't that be God's 'fault', considering that he's the creator?

As far as my understanding, through the holy spirit and the act of salvation, [basking in Gods eternal love] humans are essentially freed of original sin. I.E A saved Christian's goal- one that is eventually achieved, is to be a little Christ, our behaviour thought and acts reach a state where no evil and no suffering is done. Again, as a product of our free will.

But that doesn't really address the whole problem and it raises many new questions. Why doesn't God simply remove original sin altogether? Also, on earth we can never reach a "state where no evil and suffering is done". But apparently that's possible in heaven. Why doesn't God make it so the same conditions apply in both 'places' (obviously Heaven is not a place in the classical sense but that's besides the point here)?

[Makrell]

And why didn't God do that on earth as well?
?

He did but eve was lured by the devil to eat the apple and forever be condemned And Eve eating the apple was not necessarily an evil act, she was lured by the devil who is very powerful

[SigniferOne]

But according to the Christian beliefs, it is impossible for humans not to sin

Impossible not to sin now. Both Jesus and Adam were outside of this equation, which is why Jesus is sometimes called the Second Adam, he makes a complete circle and undoes everything.

However, apparently it is possible for humans not to sin in Heaven.

Yes, once nature has been made regenerate.

That makes me wonder why God didn't create the earth with the same conditions that make it possible for Heaven to be without sin.

Adam.

Also, if you're talking about the "corrupt nature" of humans, wouldn't that be God's 'fault', considering that he's the creator?

Nope, God is the creator of Adam. What has happened subsequently is all because of us, so that now, today, we both recommit the original sin through our lives, but are also in a way born with that original sin, which is not even just a theological proposition but simply an empirical one -- people, just automatically, statistically incline towards evil, all other things being equal. Little infant babies inherently prefer racism until being taught otherwise, etc.

[Astaroth]

Impossible not to sin now. Both Jesus and Adam were outside of this equation, which is why Jesus is sometimes called the Second Adam, he makes a complete circle and undoes everything.

But what is it that makes Heaven different?

Adam.

Yes, but it is said that it is literally impossible for people to sin in Heaven. That's apparently not the case on earth as it wasn't impossible for Adam to do evil.

[SigniferOne]

it is said that it is literally impossible for people to sin in Heaven.

Where does it say that?

[Squiggle]

This is something I've wondered about for a while. The Problem of Evil is a hotly debated topic and in order to find an 'explanation', theists often refer to the "Free Will" of humans. As in, humans have the ability to choose between doing good and evil which is the main reason for all the suffering in the world.

However, I wonder how this fits together with the idea of Heaven. Heaven is usually considered as a place without evil. Therefore, the following scenarios are possible:

1. There is no evil in heaven but also no free will. However, that means that free will is apparently not that desirable after all and it raises the question why we even have free will in the first place.
2. Both evil and free will exist in heaven. However, what is it that makes it preferable to our world then?
3. There is free will in heaven but no suffering.

#3 seems like the most plausible choice based on the Christian belief. However, that obviously proves that there can be both free will and no suffering. Therefore, using the free will theory as an explanation for the suffering in the world doesn't really seem to work out.

Thoughts?

As far as my understanding, through the holy spirit and the act of salvation, [basking in Gods eternal love] humans are essentially freed of original sin. I.E A Christian's goal- one that is eventually achieved, is to be a little Christ, our behaviour thought and acts reach a state where no evil and no suffering is done. Again, as a product of our free will.

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

There is no evil in heaven but also no free will. However, that means that free will is apparently not that desirable after all and it raises the question why we even have free will in the first place.

Free will is an illusion. If everyone knew the true consequences of each given action everyone would pick the same thing (give or take a few outliers). IE. There is a fork in the road, one road is very hard but will get you to your destination safely. The other road is a shortcut to your destination, but it's filled with bandits and landmines. 99% of people will travel down the safer road. No matter how hard the road is, it is much safer than the shortcut filled with bandits and landmines.

Free will is desirable because it allows us to reap the fruits of our labor. IE. Someone who was born rich would have a lesser appreciation of wealth than someone who was born into a poor family and had to work his way to the top. If you had no say in your financial success then, either you don't appreciate your wealth, or you sit there sulking because there's nothing you can do to get out of poverty. That's why God gives you choices.

[xcorps]

And why didn't God do that on earth as well?

God gave man free will so that man could make the choice to obey God. It's not the obedience that god wants, it's the choosing.

[Astaroth]

You haven't answered the question. Why is it that it is literally impossible to do evil in heaven, yet it is not impossible to do evil on earth?

[xcorps]

You haven't answered the question. Why is it that it is literally impossible to do evil in heaven, yet it is not impossible to do evil on earth?

You are asking me to explain the motivations of God?

[Shams al-Ma'rifa]

You haven't answered the question. Why is it that it is literally impossible to do evil in heaven, yet it is not impossible to do evil on earth?

Because bad people go to hell which leaves only good people in heaven, and good people don't do evil things. Are we serious here..?