Late Roman Units

[Ferdiad]

I'd like to know if anyone has any ideas on how the Roman Army might have envolved, if they hadn't declined but instead experienced growth with lots of resources and wealth like ingame?
Thanks

[Fred Putz]

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[strife1013]

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[Ferdiad]

Within the time frame of the game.

[chris7ian]

For them to have survived they would have needed to adapt to their enemy. They probably would have borrowed a lot from their Muslim invaders.

[Ichon]

Well Byzantines were already closer to professional armies than many European nations but as their Empire fractured the ability to train and equip soldiers united by culture and a shared ethos declined. If they had resources to equip and manpower units by a shared sense of nationality to train then there is no reason to suppose they wouldn't have adopted more modern weapons and styles though likely at a slower pace unless suffering some devastating defeats. If you are victorious why change and there were already lots of traditions that would get in the way.

It's a difficult question though because it presupposes alot of changes that probably wouldn't have happened even without 4th Crusade. Probably Byzantine armies would have had morale issues similar to other nations which had many different cultures. Leadership problems quite possibly as well if many military leaders were appointed due to reasons of loyalty or connections rather than merit.

[Caesar Clivus]

The trend in the later Roman empire was to adapt more western technologies, largely due to the trade with Genoa and Venice that the empire did. Soldiers starting being equipped in a more (but not fully) western manner. It's probably fair to say that this trend would've continued.

However you question needs to be qualified a bit. How far back are you talking when you say decline? Pre-1204? Pre-Manzikert? The empire went through a number of periods of decline and regrowth

[Ferdiad]

Just the general decline from its golden days.

[Abyrvalg]

Pre-1204 Empire already had better armies than any neighbour, it was only matter of money to maintain enough. They could invent something new though (and they did, see counterweight trebuchet for example).

In later periods Romans no doubt would adapt (and possibly improve) plate armor and pike&shot. If conditions favoured Romans such armies combined with their own military experience and science could compete even with Tercio Español.
And they had long experience with extremely heavy cavalry already.

Assuming ERE still had Anatolia, Empire could employ quality horse-archers as well.
Combining both Eastern and Western appearences, Roman's armies could be quite unique and versatile.

[Polycarpe]

But some events and really bad administration have made that Empire to disappear.

[BarSteward]

I know that you guys are trying to make the game as realistic and historically accurate as possible but considering that from the moment anyone starts playing the game it becomes the extreme opposite of historically accurate.
Could you not allow a slightly better late military for the Romans? Maybe some kind of military decline during the historical period of decline for the empire, but then after that, when in real life the empire pretty much died have a modernization if you, as the player or the AI manage to survive that long.

[Polycarpe]

I know that you guys are trying to make the game as realistic and historically accurate as possible but considering that from the moment anyone starts playing the game it becomes the extreme opposite of historically accurate.
Could you not allow a slightly better late military for the Romans? Maybe some kind of military decline during the historical period of decline for the empire, but then after that, when in real life the empire pretty much died have a modernization if you, as the player or the AI manage to survive that long.

I'm working on a new roster for Late period. (the Paleiologian period) and it's a much more difficult faction to play along there are much more dependant to mercenaries, less professional armies (thanks to the Angeloi Dynasty) and a more difficult economy (thanks again for the 4th Crusade).

but I advise you that you may not like it, forget the powerful roster of the Early era, most of their units are no more recruitable for historical reasons, and some new, but less devastating will be recruitable and you need to manage your economy very wisely or you'll be bankrupt quickly.

[Delvecchio1975]

I agree the Byzantines should at least get some basic gunpowder units, nothing exceptional, just standard. They happily invested in cannons in their latter days, so there's no reason to believe they were against gunpowder for religious reasons or whatever!

[k/t]

They have Latin Handgunners.

[Gogolometro]

Very late k/t. Latin come too late. Same for their pikes. I think 1300 is the time were is set a rift from byzantines to western armies. Will see halebards, handgunners, man-at-arms, the only things offensive byzantines can stand are italian crossbows and militia swordsmans.

[Ichon]

Byz can hire mercenaries and with their economy that is rather easy. If anything is added to Byz it should come quite late. They get the most powerful military for most of the early campaign- if they are still alive and presumably effective using that military later in the game why would they switch tactics? Gradually they would see the light but it often takes a lot battle or a lost war to convince traditions to change. Since player is unlikely to lose many battles or wars what new equipment and tactics Byz adopt should be much later than other factions... almost so that adding anything is pointless since so few players ever see 1500s anyway.

[Gogolometro]

My problem with them is near 1300. In eastern front I am really confident. Turks pushed early, things became more secure there, but in west things became harder. If I blitz I will be bored for sure, if I want smooth assimilation I will discover is 1300 and scutatoi and athanoi will not solve all my problems. When I say late I think 1300 and something around not pike and shoot event.

[Ichon]

My problem with them is near 1300. In eastern front I am really confident. Turks pushed early, things became more secure there, but in west things became harder. If I blitz I will be bored for sure, if I want smooth assimilation I will discover is 1300 and scutatoi and athanoi will not solve all my problems. When I say late I think 1300 and something around not pike and shoot event.

Men at Arms heavy cavalry and heavy infantry along with some halberd militias and better armor and crossbows come out around 1300 but nothing extreme as far as I am aware. Especially not versus veteran Byzantine armies that will exist by then. The only time it starts to seem harder to me is when Lancers, Gendarmes, cannons, and masses of good pikes are around but that is far past 1300 more like late 1300s or 1400s when those are in large numbers in every army Byz will face in the west.

[Mihajlo]

. The only time it starts to seem harder to me is when Lancers, Gendarmes, cannons, and masses of good pikes

Exactly this, BUT at the time they arrive in game, in good numbers, I personally have more then half of the world, or numerous stacks of army's... I understand you like casual play, like we all I guess, but playing late camp. with Byzans means lots of fast conquering around you n fast expand on west n north, lots of battles with Turks near constantinople = money, money n yet more money is needed for all this= lots of lands under your command= must conquer to survive