BGR- Yay or nay?

[DedBludUK]

After downloading SS6.4 i thought i would try playing with BGR (first time ever) and as denmark was playing an interesting campaign. Fighting off the norweigans and HRE. But after a while the money, or lack of, became an issue. There were periods where i was not able to do anything at all, just press end turn for 3 trns or so before any money came in.
When it did it was a nice 2000 or so. Its just the waiting and minute details that began to ruin it for me. A new campaign without it on, i seem to be overloaded with money and cant spend it all. Bribing and donations ahoy!

So i was wondering, how many of you are playing with BGR? Is it too realistic and taking the fun out of the game to some degree? Is it better without?

[newt]

People usually only play it if vh/vh is too easy.

[recentiy03]

I can't stand VH, it seems unrealistic and the AI is too buffed...I also can't stand playing without BGR because it is too easy to raise money. So I only play BGR on hard.

[chris7ian]

You can edit your kings purse or faction starting treasury. Don't play with merchants or build markets and the excess money will dry up.

[Asterix]

i made a poll for this very question a while back. 25% ish percent of people use it, the rest don't.

[Kael BloodMoon]

Asterix has all the statistics, doesn't he? +rep

[Asterix]

Asterix has all the statistics, doesn't he? +rep

just you wait, i'll have another poll up within a few minutes....

[Jochi]

Well BGR adds a lot of historical stuff . And what can i say ,im hooked i cant even go back to anything less than BGRII.
Im finally getting the hang of the mechanics of BGR after trying with a couple of factions.Id suggest picking England since you only need to worry about the Scots when you are on that isle. But beware ,after turn 30 the norwegians show up with a full army.

EDIT: Yay

[Jiub]

Yay!
I use it because it forces me to have smaller armies and always a good mix of militia and only a few professional soldiers. It keeps my kingdom feet down on the grown and I like that. Lacking the feeling that nothing can touch me is nice. I am constantly at war, so loosing is always just around the corner and a possibility. Since I played my last campaigns with the Cumans and Lithuania I found that surviving in late campaign with Byg, on vhvh and Savage AI is a matter of "all the right moves". You can't afford to screw up, cos you are dead.(i know it's not the most aggressive AI, but at vhvh and with pagan religion it seems that everyone refuses to do alliances with you, no matter what, sometimes i pay a couple hundred florints to get trade rights only.)

Thanks Byg for the nice mod !

i made a poll for this very question a while back. 25% ish percent of people use it, the rest don't.

Only 25% ?
I thought it would be like 85%ish...

[Asterix]

Only 25% ?
I thought it would be like 85%ish...

yeah, i was surprised too at first. the reason was that BGR was so utterly confusing (especially at first) and so horrifically challenging (no matter how many times you play) that people said " this, i actually wanna win something 'round here!" and didn't use it. and BGR is confusing-you can't easily tell how much money you are making (or more often losing), recruitment is a very painful and difficult process (and very expensive), the noble system is dreadfully strange, etc, etc. The massive amount of micro you need to do is, i believe, too much for most people and they gave up and tried to do something more simple. apparently, realism actually does come after fun.
EDIT: that's not to say i don't think BGR is a good thing. plenty of people still use it and like it, and i personally think that it's a great addition if you can figure it out. i respect those people who can actually figure it out, and wish i was one of those smarter people...

[Jiub]

Yay!
I use it because it forces me to have smaller armies and always a good mix of militia and only a few professional soldiers. It keeps my kingdom feet down on the grown and I like that. Lacking the feeling that nothing can touch me is nice. I am constantly at war, so loosing is always just around the corner and a possibility. Since I played my last campaigns with the Cumans and Lithuania I found that surviving in late campaign with Byg, on vhvh and Savage AI is a matter of "all the right moves". You can't afford to screw up, cos you are dead.(i know it's not the most aggressive AI, but at vhvh and with pagan religion it seems that everyone refuses to do alliances with you, no matter what, sometimes i pay a couple hundred florints to get trade rights only.)

Thanks Byg for the nice mod !

As i said before guys, this mod forces you to play realistic. Winning without actually putting some brain in your game, winning too easy, blows. You have to calculate what buildings do you afford to spend money on. You have to plan what cities you focus on growing and what cities you plan to just raise taxes to fund your empire. Create a game strategy i.e. early rely on archers (peasant archers have 60 upkeep and rack up lots of kills during a defense) or (my fave) light cavalry, so much so that you optimize your upkeep and still use capable soldiers to unfold your campaign strategy.
The BGR system reintroduces weak units as important units. And the late knights, due to their low availability, really seem great now that they're not overused and spammed.

I know that actually having a smarter AI would be better. But artificial intelligence is a tough nut to crack, and i doubt we here at twc will crack it soon or easy anytime soon, if ever, on this medieval 2 platform.

[Jochi]

Well you really need to be on your toes with it ,but since the diplomacy is FINALLY working ,thx too all the modders their hard work , you can actually depend on your allies to back you up and dont betray you (using savage AI!!!).My ongoing campaign really depends on one ally to not backstab me.

[Asterix]

Well you really need to be on your toes with it ,but since the diplomacy is FINALLY working ,thx too all the modders their hard work , you can actually depend on your allies to back you up and dont betray you (using savage AI!!!).My ongoing campaign really depends on one ally to not backstab me.

thats some thin ice you're walking on! hope your allies don't come from your back door and kill you.

[Jochi]

Well i have spies standing everywhere around my borders keeping an eye out for an increase in military actions near my borders. But so far BGR and SS havent let me down whenever i had a marriage alliance. And since my southern border is secured because of another faction i will gladly welcome their backstabbing since im running out of armies to destroy ,have loads of money and my WCs are nearby in citadels .

[flankstakes]

I love BGR in the game since it makes expansion slower by forcing you to only use your faction leader and heir, which means you are not able to expand in all directions at the height of your power after turn 50 or so. but in 6.4, BGR IV makes my game unbearable because of the slow turn times so I have to play with BGR II. but I'd prefer BGR IV only if someone made the turns faster.

[Asterix]

Well i have spies standing everywhere around my borders keeping an eye out for an increase in military actions near my borders. But so far BGR and SS havent let me down whenever i had a marriage alliance. And since my southern border is secured because of another faction i will gladly welcome their backstabbing since im running out of armies to destroy ,have loads of money and my WCs are nearby in citadels .

problem with that is, all the AI has to do is blockade one insignificant port on the other side of the map with one cog and BOOM, you're at war. and AFAIK, that doesn't really need a WWI style mobilization.
and there are never too few armies to destroy! simply walk into Mordor...er, the Fatimid's lands, rather, been playing too much TATW....

[Jochi]

problem with that is, all the AI has to do is blockade one insignificant port on the other side of the map with one cog and BOOM, you're at war. and AFAIK, that doesn't really need a WWI style mobilization.
and there are never too few armies to destroy! simply walk into Mordor...er, the Fatimid's lands, rather, been playing too much TATW....

Lol ,+rep for that one
Other side of the map isnt an issue since all my region are relatively near and my navy is close .And the thing bout the fatimids ,the problem is that you can only use 3 WCs to at max for your expansion ,so if you want to attack decently youll need at least two of em leaving the rest of you land in danger . This really isnt worth the risk.

@spoon : ALT TAB!!!! ive been watching episodes of family guy and house md in between .This extra that the devs included is really that little something that makes this mod perfect.

@ichon: AGREED

@flankstakes: there are a bunch,so you should visit the subforum and get the manual for BGRE to get to know them all.
But in general it comes down too :personal wealth of each general
Income is influenced by the amount of conquerings(i.e. personal estates) and taxes he got.
Outcome is making units without having the professional recruitment ancillary, causes no losses of treasury for you but losses of money for the general.
If you are not carefull about what you do with each of your generals they might end up bankrupt and banned,which will start a whole bunch of negative ancillarys.
Again ,visit BGR for a lot more info. No worries though ,I was also overwhelmed by reading his manual but after awhile you ll get the hang of it .The extra turntime is defintly worth it .

[Spoon]

Nay. The ordinary turn time is already way too long and BGR increases this.(I've got an old lap top)

[Ichon]

Yay obviously. Turn times aren't too bad now that you can ALT TAB to another task while AI turns goes. 1.5 min without BGR vs 2.5 min with BGR- noticeable increase but 1 min for much better game is worth it especially considering fighting 2-3 battles takes 30 minutes by mid game. In late campaign I've had a couple turns take almost 5 minutes but that isn't the average.

Biggest improvement with BGR to me is that you gotta think about finances a bit more and some long term decisions are based on religion/culture of possible enemies and the money available.

It makes it feel more like a simulation rather than an arcade game which I quickly get bored after playing an arcade game for 10 minutes.

[flankstakes]

so what about financial differences between BGR II and BGR IV?are there any?