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Thread: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

  1. #81
    Harry Lime's Avatar Not a ToS violation
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    It could be argued that under the current wording of the constitution the election of Hex members to the CdeC is a paradox which should not have been permitted to happen.

    The full membership comprises of:

    * Twelve elected Citizens, who may discuss and vote on all matters within the Consilium de Civitates Forum
    * Hexagon members, who may discuss all matters within the Consilium de Civitates Forum, but have no vote.
    I've been looking through the archives to find the original proposal(s) and subsequent amendments to get the spirit of the law rather than the letter but came up with squat other than threads from 5 years ago bemoaning the lack of activity in the Curia and the reigning in of the CdeC. Some things, apparently, never change.
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  2. #82
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    I agree Harry, I cannot find anything either. So much for original intent. I agree that the current constitution would imply a pardox as CdeC is currently composed.

    @Ponti -- let's turn this discussion around a bit. Why do you feel that it is appropriate for an administrator to take up an elected seat? Is this supportable based upon the intent and purpose of the Curia?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















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  3. #83

    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    let's turn this discussion around a bit. Why do you feel that it is appropriate for an administrator to take up an elected seat? Is this supportable based upon the intent and purpose of the Curia?
    Anyone who is a citizen may take up a seat regardless of any other on site affiliation. That is the only criteria, not some fabricated bit of prevarication regarding the ethos of the curia. This proposal is insulting, but if it is your aim to drive a wedge between the curia and hex by all means proceed.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; January 21, 2011 at 08:04 PM.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    I guess we will need to simply disagree then. I do believe there is more to the issue than simply being a citizen. I have no reason nor desire to drive a wedge beteen the site administrators and the Curia. I also do not think you are being fair with me on the proposal. Perhaps at least recognize that it has been put forth in good faith even if you believe the proposal to be flawed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  5. #85
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    It may be best to put this on hold for a bit. There is no need for tempers to flame more than they have. Cooler heads will lead to a better solution.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  6. #86
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    How often does Hex exercise a veto where the CDC is concerned? It may have the power but I can assure people that Hex is loathe to get involved in the Curia. I was keen to establish independence betwen Hex and the Curia so that both could complement the site. I did not want them to be totally divorced which this amendment seems to drag us all towards.

    Where Citizen votes are concerned I cannot think of a time when Hex has overruled the CDC (I might be wrong). Hex might make noises by engaging in debate, but those are very rare too. It's been many years since TWC won independence and I had to fight very hard within the CDC to ensure that people didn't have their citizen badges removed for being on one side of the other. One of those battles was very, very hard fought. I won't deny I was very tempted to simply declare that what I wanted would be but I resisted the temptation and allowed the debate to run it's course. I cannot remember, off hand the result of that particular clash, but I do know that aside from feeling very uneasy about what was being proposed I restricted myself to using discussion. I am convinced my policy of non interference in the CDC was correct then and remains correct now - though sometimes eyebrows get raised from those hallowed halls.

    I think VP's ideas have merit in the sense that it is laudable to get increased participation from the general citizenry. I would ask him to consider, though - how often does Hex run for a seat? What is the proportion of Hex involvement overall compared to the rest of the citizenry? Does he want to create (as this does) a barrier between the CDC/Curia and Hex which, I believe, will begin to emulate the divisions under ON all those years ago. As someone asked in another debate -
    Quote Originally Posted by An Honourable Member View Post
    Just as an aside -- can you give a list of the recent times that this would be even a factor? Please establish a need before asking to amend.
    As to Hex veto in the processes - Hex seldom gets involved and when it does it has often been asked to (for evidence etc). It might sound trite but being on Hex does give you a different perspective at times. This is no bad thing. It is not everything, also - so being disagreed with is good too
    Last edited by imb39; January 22, 2011 at 02:50 AM.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    Based upon Ponti's strong opposition to the measure, I am going to abandon this for the time being. If an administrator holds such strong views, I need to find another approach to this matter. This was never meant to drive any wedges between the administrators and the Curia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  8. #88

    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    Its actually, when reading the TWCC, against the TWCC for a Hex member to be elected

  9. #89
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    I disagree that it is a clear conflict with the constitution as written. This is not the first time that we have found a bit of fuzziness in the document.

    However, I do have a question for any who believe that Hex (by virtue of being citizens) can run for elected CdeC seats. The constitution also requires citizenship for the Magistrate elected office as well.

    In addition, three Magistrates shall be elected, one every two months for 6 month terms, by the procedure in Section II, Article II. Applicants cannot have received a warning in at least one year and must have been citizens for at least 3 months.
    Does this mean that a member of Hex is allowed to run for Magistrate?

    What I am getting at is that we need to take a serious look at Curial elected office qualifications and the role of Hex membership. I would hope that the members of Hex who opposed my proposal will come forward with a suggestion that will resolve this paradox as Harry Lime put it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  10. #90
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    MembershipThe full membership comprises of:
    • Twelve elected Citizens, who may discuss and vote on all matters within the Consilium de Civitates Forum
    • Hexagon members, who may discuss all matters within the Consilium de Civitates Forum, but have no vote.
    • The Curator, who may take part in all Consilium de Civitates discussions, and has the deciding vote only in the case of a tie. The Curator has veto powers over any Consilium de Civitates decision.

    Elected members of the Consilium de Civitates and the Curator must actively participate in discussions and votes. Hexagon members' participation is optional.


    Quote Originally Posted by Major Darling View Post
    Its actually, when reading the TWCC, against the TWCC for a Hex member to be elected
    Actually it doesn't, since nowhere in the quoted section above does it say that the elected citizens cannot be hex members. All it says is that all hex members are guaranteed non-voting membership, not that they cannot also hold voting membership as citizens. It should be noted that any future hex member who isn't a citizen could not hold a voting position, but would still have a non-voting one.
    Last edited by Squid; January 22, 2011 at 09:25 PM.
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  11. #91
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    Squid -- I beat you by moments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  12. #92
    Squid's Avatar Opifex
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    I I would hope that the members of Hex who opposed my proposal will come forward with a suggestion that will resolve this paradox as Harry Lime put it.
    I have, the fact that you dismissed it does not mean a suggestion was not offered.
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  13. #93
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    Can you point me to the suggestion? Does it address all Curially elected offices or just the CdeC?
    Grandson of Silver Guard, son of Maverick, and father to Mr MM|Rebel6666|Beer Money |bastard stepfather to Ferrets54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  14. #94
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    Never mind -- I think I found your compromose suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sqυιd View Post
    How about a compromise? An administrator who's on CdeC cannot participate in any veto of CdeC proceedings when the proceedings occurred while they were on council. In other words as long as some part of some case occurs while the administrator sits on council they cannot participate in a veto of that case if one occurs.
    I think that this has a problem. If you are going to be a site administrator, you will always need the power of veto. This is the basic conflict that being a member of Hex puts you in with many activities on the site. I am not a member of Hex, so I do not know how the membership handles these conflicts. At first blush, I would assume that it is an internal matter within Hex and you abstain from actions with such apparent conflicts. But is it appropriate for the Curia to codify that within the Constitution?

    If it is appropriate, perhaps we should consider this as a blanket amendment regarding Hex participation for all Curially elected and or appointed offices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  15. #95
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    Just CdeC, but the pricipal of it can be applied everywhere. It basically follows the moderation principal of don't moderate where you're involved. If you're involved in a thread/case/whatever you can't participate in the veto. That totally excises any possible abuse of power because the power is mandated not to be used. If moderators can be expected to obey the rule, without it needing to be written into the constitution I see no reason why hex members can't be expected to as well.
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  16. #96
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    Never mind -- I think I found your compromose suggestion.



    I think that this has a problem. If you are going to be a site administrator, you will always need the power of veto. This is the basic conflict that being a member of Hex puts you in with many activities on the site. I am not a member of Hex, so I do not know how the membership handles these conflicts. At first blush, I would assume that it is an internal matter within Hex and you abstain from actions with such apparent conflicts. But is it appropriate for the Curia to codify that within the Constitution?

    If it is appropriate, perhaps we should consider this as a blanket amendment regarding Hex participation for all Curially elected and or appointed offices.
    Its only a problem if all members of hex are voting members at the same time, highly unlikely.
    Last edited by Squid; January 22, 2011 at 09:53 PM.
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  17. #97
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    I did not ignore your suggestion earllier. I am just a bit hesitant to write such a suggestion into the Curia. I suppose it could be a basis for removal from the Curial office when a member exercises Hex responsibilities in conflict with the office. That keeps the rules within the Curia and does not attempt to hamstring the site administration which I would oppose.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  18. #98
    irishron's Avatar Cura Palatii
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    This playing with the power of Hex even in a constitutional amendment can be tricky business. If this more about the future beyond Garb, imb, the other present Hex members, maybe time to look into it.

    Are all present Hex members with full access to the Admincp or just Garb, imb, and Sim? My understanding when the Senior Moderator position was abolished and Moderator Overseer position was inaugurated, these would have limited Admincp privileges. In my interpretaion of things, Moderator Overseers can run for office UNLESS they are given full Hexagon powers and full Admincp privileges.

    This being mainly directed at Squid who is head of the Technical Department and still has his seat, and Pontifex, I think we need to know how much power these newbies really have.

    One a side note, it already has been stated concerning vetoes, a Hex member cannot act unilaterally.

  19. #99
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    Please consider this amendment to be abandoned. For those of you interested:
    [Amendment] Conflicts of Interest btween membership in Hex and Curial Office
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Cashmere View Post
    Weighing into threads with the steel capped boots on just because you disagree with my viewpoints, is just embarrassing.

















    Quote Originally Posted by Hagar_the_Horrible
    As you journey through life take a minute every now and then to give a thought for the other fellow. He could be plotting something.


  20. #100

    Default Re: [Amendment] Membership of the Consilium de Civitates

    Alrighty.

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