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  1. #1
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    Default Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Read at your leisure. Got tired of explaining these things every time there's some sort of socialism/capitalism debate on here so hopefully this will cut down on time wasted arguing over misconceptions.



    Eight myths about socialism--and their answers
    Thursday, September 23, 2010

    Over the last few years, the word socialism has become more and more common. Usually, it’s used in an extremely negative way and in almost all situations the politician or commentator uttering the word either has no idea what it means or is being intentionally misleading. We publish the following to set the record straight.

    Myth #1: Socialists want to take away your property

    This myth confuses private property with personal property. When socialists talk about the abolition of private property, they are referring to the socialization of the means of production—the resources and equipment that create wealth. Working people do not own this type of property—which is why we have to work to survive.

    Right now, the wealth of the 1,000 billionaires is equal to that of the 3.5 billion poorest people on the planet. In order to provide everyone with more, that wealth must be commonly owned, and not the property of those few capitalists.

    Socialists have no interest in taking away one’s home, car or individual items intended for personal use. In reality, as the foreclosure crisis has shown, under capitalism the banks own most of this property as well—and will take it away as they please.

    Myth #2: Socialists are against democracy and for a dictatorship

    The two-party “democratic” system under capitalism is in fact a dictatorship of the rich. Under it, working people create all the wealth, but capitalists—who own the corporations and banks—have all the economic power and use it to control politics. That fact never changes, even if we have the right to vote. We get to vote on who will oppress us next, while all the important decisions are made in executive boardrooms.

    Under socialism, society’s vast resources cannot be privately hoarded. They are used and distributed according to a plan that the working class and its organizations decide. Because wealth will not be concentrated in the hands of a tiny elite, it creates the basis for genuine democracy -- real "rule of the people" -- for the first time.

    Historically, there have been various political forms to defend the rule of the working class. In U.S. schools, they teach us that the Soviet Union, China and Cuba are evil dictatorships because of their single-party systems. But we never learn that they developed such governments to prevent counter-revolutions that would have brought back the dictatorship of the rich.

    Myth #3: Under socialism, there is no incentive to work

    Socialism rewards hard work, while under capitalism the richest people are the ones who do no work at all. In a socialist society, the working class controls the means of production and the fruits of its own labor and therefore has a real stake in the realization of its full capacity to produce. The main incentive to work under capitalism is the threat of being fired and starvation.

    Under socialism, a person is paid according to the work they do. Under capitalism, the least productive members of society—the bankers and CEOs—grow obscenely wealthy while working class people live paycheck to paycheck.

    Myth #4: Socialism is against human nature

    Human “nature” changes depending on the type of society you are living in. Marx explained that the ruling ideas and behaviors of a society are those of its ruling class. We are taught to believe that humans are naturally violent, exploitative and selfish because those are the principles on which our society is built. Looking through human history, including thousands of years of communal, class-less societies, we can see that another “nature” exists. Even in our present society, we can see in our daily lives tremendous examples of shared sacrifice and solidarity—even if those don’t make the evening news.

    Myth #5: Socialists don't respect freedom of religion

    Socialists consider religion a private matter, and actively fight against discrimination on the basis of religion.

    Marx never called for the banning of religion. He pointed out how historically religious institutions have discouraged people from fighting against oppression. They instruct poor and working people to wait instead for a better after-life.

    There are many examples, however, of movements that have used religious ideology while struggling for a better world. While many socialists are atheists, the PSL whole-heartedly welcomes people of all faith backgrounds that want to fight to make that world a reality.

    Myth #6: Socialists only care about class oppression—not other forms of oppression

    PSL members are tireless fighters against all forms of oppression. We believe that racism, sexism, anti-immigrant bigotry, homophobia and all other kinds of discrimination divide poor and working people and must be fought if we ever want to move forward. We put ourselves in that revolutionary tradition of socialists who take up the banners of Black liberation, women’s liberation and LGBT liberation.

    Myth #7: Socialism collapsed when the Soviet Union collapsed

    Socialism as a concept is not dependent on any single state. It will exist as long as the exploitative system of capitalism exists. It existed before the Soviet Union and therefore exists after it. It is a theory of how to organize society in a way that eliminates scarcity and puts the producers in control.

    A few governments do exist that are trying to build socialism. Cuba, a country that had been impoverished by colonialism, is an example of what can be accomplished when the resources of society are used to meet the needs of the people, as opposed to enriching the capitalist class.

    The Soviet Union was the first experiment of poor and working people taking power. Despite its own contradictions, it provided universal health care, free education, the right to a job, free childcare, as well as guaranteed maternity leave and vacation days for all workers. Since the Soviet Union’s overthrow, life expectancy and living conditions have plummeted in Russia.

    The Soviet Union also developed a privileged, bureaucratic leadership that departed from revolutionary socialism. But it must be remembered that it inherited a legacy of underdevelopment. For its entire existence, the world’s most powerful countries worked to weaken and overthrow it.

    Myth #8: Socialism has no historical roots in the United States

    Socialists have been consistent and dedicated participants in all the major struggles the U.S. working class has engaged in. Some of the main socialist holidays—International Worker’s Day and International Women’s Day—began in the United States. The first unions were established by radicals who wanted to abolish capitalism. During the Great Depression, socialists were leaders in the labor movement and organized the unemployed. In the 1960s, leading figures of the struggles against racism, war and sexism recognized that only socialism could put a final end to these injustices. (Click here to read about socialists' historic role in the U.S. labor movement.)

  2. #2

    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Ok,
    1. How is ones business and shares in corporations not part of ones property? Please define property.

    2.How is a one party system not against democracy? I mean that's against the very definition of democracy.

    3.That's exactly the opposite of what happens, under socialism people aren't paid according to the work they are paid according to what their wise leadership decides is right for them unlike in a capitalist society where the market determines what they are paid which is fair. Furthermore please explain how CEOs are unproductive.

    4. Take a class in biology, human nature doesn't change we have just imposed more rules under threat of violence and unless you plan some sort of biological engineering to remove a large part of human nature I very much doubt that you can change basic human nature.

    5. Seems right, he wasn't to positive about religion though

    6.Depends on what kind of socialists.

    7.Yep, unfortunately it didn't go away and Cuba is still a poor mismanaged dictatorship.

    8. Well I don't know that much about socialist Us history so I suppose it's right, thank god it did never take hold in the Us though.

    So a bunch of propaganda without any facts from reality how refreshing.
    Last edited by molonthegreat; January 17, 2011 at 08:06 AM.
    These fine gentlemen's have thanks to their consistent idiotic posts have earned their place on my ignore list: mrmouth, The Illusionist, motiv-8, mongrel, azoth, thorn777 and elfdude. If you want to join their honourable rank you just have to post idiotic posts and you will get there in no time.

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    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Quote Originally Posted by molonthegreat View Post
    Ok,
    1. How is ones business and shares in corporations not part of ones property? Please define property.

    2.How is a one party system not against democracy? I mean that's against the very definition of democracy.

    3.That's exactly the opposite of what happens, under socialism people aren't paid according to the work they are paid according to what their wise leadership decides is right for them unlike in a capitalist society where the market determines what they are paid which is fair. Furthermore please explain how CEOs are unproductive.

    4. Take a class in biology, human nature doesn't change we have just imposed more rules under threat of violence and unless you plan some sort of biological engineering to remove a large part of human nature I very much doubt that you can change basic human nature.

    5. Seems right, he wasn't to positive about religion though

    6.Depends on what kind of socialists.

    7.Yep, unfortunately it didn't go away and Cuba is still a poor mismanaged dictatorship.

    8. Well I don't know that much about socialist Us history so I suppose it's right, thank god it did never take hold in the Us though.

    So a bunch of propaganda without any facts from reality how refreshing.
    1. In a communist system, a business or a corp. can't be private (unless your self employed). It's owned by the people that work there.

    2. Really? Look up the word Democracy then. It shouldn't be defined by the number of parties in a system, but by how much real power people actually have in their work place, living environment etc.

    3. In the capitalist system your wage is not determined by the market value. It's determined by how much you boss is willing to pay you. Your employer is the only one who decides on what to do with the profit.

    4. Ah yes.. human nature - Murdering, raping, stealing, having slaves etc. - have been the norm of human nature for as long as we have existed. Why aren't we allowed to continue to act like humans in the capitalist system? Isn't that a form of oppression?

    5. Religions are based on myths, and therefore should have no say in politics. Nowdays even people in capitalist countries recognise that (perhaps not in the US..)

    7. .. like most capitalist countries in S.America, Africa and Asia.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Quote Originally Posted by Platon View Post

    3. In the capitalist system your wage is not determined by the market value. It's determined by how much you boss is willing to pay you. Your employer is the only one who decides on what to do with the profit.
    That's a myth. In capitalism work is a commodity, the boss can't set its price arbitrarily because if he pays too little the worker will migrate to a better paying job and if he pays too much he will go out of bussines.

    On the other hand in Comunism the wage has nothing to do with market value, it's established arbitrarily by the state and usualy has nothing to do with productivity and efficiency. And this isn't theory, I'm coming from a country that experienced that first hand. The wages and prices were entierly arbitrary, people were payed "lots" of money, but there weren't products on the market to use the money; in a market economy when you have excedentary money you have inflation (prices go up untill an equilibrium is reached between the amount of money and goods), but in Comunism you can't have that, you just have lots of worthless money you can't use to buy much goods because there aren't enough goods.
    Last edited by CiviC; January 17, 2011 at 01:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    That's a myth. In capitalism work is a commodity, the boss can't set its price arbitrarily because if he pays too little the worker will migrate to a better paying job and if he pays too much he will go out of bussines.
    Might have worked very nice back in the 19:th century in the US when the employee, if he didn't like what he got, could run west and settle anywhere and be self employed. With all the land and rescources already taken you have only a choice to be a wage slave or starve.
    You see in reality there is no real choice.
    Sure, skilled workers have much better choices, but for the vast majority, they are stuck. We can see that already in the western world an specially in the US.
    They had wage increases on par with prodictivity from 1870-1970 as long as there was a demand for workers. Since then wages stop to rising, and have even already started to decline. The profits for the richest never stopt though. And the last years profits have been staggering. These are the profits produced by the masses, but they have no say in how to distribute them. And therefore we have the crisis we have now.
    The workers are exhausted from working more hours, but getting less and less paid. Now you can have both parents working 12 hours/day, and still need to go in to debt to buy a house or a car.
    Last edited by Platon; January 17, 2011 at 06:00 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Quote Originally Posted by Platon View Post
    3. In the capitalist system your wage is not determined by the market value. It's determined by how much you boss is willing to pay you. Your employer is the only one who decides on what to do with the profit.
    As an employer I laugh at this. Yes what I am willing to pay is determined by me, but me looking at what I have to pay in order to keep good employees. Two of my employee's I hired from a competitor because he under paid. They had skills to market, I bought them for a price they agreed to.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

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  7. #7
    Fight!'s Avatar Question Everything.
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    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Figured Platon's answers should suffice for now otherwise, I have a tendency to wait for the big hitters to arrive, but there are some things I wanted to point out.

    Quote Originally Posted by molonthegreat View Post
    4. Take a class in biology, human nature doesn't change we have just imposed more rules under threat of violence and unless you plan some sort of biological engineering to remove a large part of human nature I very much doubt that you can change basic human nature.
    Actually, the term you're searching for is Sociology, which refers to the study of the society and interactions within. Biology is the study of the physical characteristics of organisms

    As for human nature, the only nature humans have correlates to reproducing. If an tendency increases the odds for reproduction, they will carry on that tendency to their children. That is human nature, and that which is not the aforementioned is not of human nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by molonthegreat View Post
    So a bunch of propaganda without any facts from reality how refreshing
    Actually, the OP is more of a description of the stance of most Socialists. Not all Socialists, mind you. In fact, some Socialists don't propose any more state ownership of property than is already utilized; among other disagreements. But it does account for most Socialists, nonetheless.

    I can't see how it could be propaganda, though.
    Last edited by Fight!; January 17, 2011 at 09:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    ^That

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    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Same as molonthegreat.

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    Makrell's Avatar The first of all fish
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    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Do you mean sosialism like in USSR.
    Cause i live in Norway and i would say we are highly socialist, as are the rest of scandinavia

  11. #11

    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Quote Originally Posted by Makrell View Post
    Do you mean sosialism like in USSR.
    Cause i live in Norway and i would say we are highly socialist, as are the rest of scandinavia
    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    Social democracy is a political ideology of the centre-left on the classic political spectrum. The contemporary social democratic movement seeks to reform capitalism to align it with the ethical ideals of social justice while maintaining the capitalist mode of production, as opposed to creating an alternative socialist economic system.
    If you are maintaining the capitalist mode of production, then you are admitting the defeat of the socialist way of production, which means totally rejecting marxism.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; January 17, 2011 at 08:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    If you are maintaining the capitalist mode of production, then you are admitting the defeat of the socialist way of production, which means totally rejecting marxism.
    I see but we are not liberalists as we keep A LOT of governement control, so far that we have rejected joining the EU because of such isssues

  13. #13

    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    If you are maintaining the capitalist mode of production, then you are admitting the defeat of the socialist way of production, which means totally rejecting marxism.
    When people speak of socialism, they rarely mean mode of production. The vast majority of very successful, rich nations are mixed economies, meaning that they have a private sector and a public sector. In certain industries, the state runs things. And even in private industry, there is government regulation, sometimes very heavy.

    Most socialists I know are all about the mixed economy system, not for the socialist mode of production for everything. Course, I'm in the US. Technically, everyone is a socialist to some degree as it is, as well as a capitalist. But in the US, the "socialists" usually just ask for more government regulation of certain industries they think are too powerful and hurting the US, while the libertarians have a much more extreme position overall, with quite a huge chunk wanting many long established forms of socialism and regulation completely repealed and a semi-anarchaic government put in place. These are the libertarians, pretty much the opposite in many ways.

    I'm a socialist and a capitalist. I think in some industries, government reguation is very necessary and for some things, the government should have control, not private industries, and that for most businesses, private ownership and capitalism is best. You need the right mix, and it has worked very very well. Right now, I think many nations in Europe have the best balance, the best mix, and are doing the best in terms of how a country may be measured (IMHO) in terms of economic success and justice.

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    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    I'd say there's nothing left to discuss.

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    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Those "myths" actually aply to Comunism not Socialism.

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    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    Those "myths" actually aply to Comunism not Socialism.
    This.
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    but you can't yet appreciate harmony."

  17. #17

    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    Those "myths" actually aply to Comunism not Socialism.
    In America there is no sucth thing as Socialist and Communist both mean the same.
    8 Myths? Were hell these myths came from some I never hear in my life this is realy 8 myths for Americans.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Why do socialists want to take money from me and give it to people who don't feel like working?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Quote Originally Posted by ivan_the_terrible View Post
    Why do socialists want to take money from me and give it to people who don't feel like working?
    Why do capitalists take money from you and give it to banks that failed?

    Yeah, summing up a whole complex ideology in stupid soundbites is pretty failtastic.

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    Default Re: Eight myths about socialism - and their answers

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Why do capitalists take money from you and give it to banks that failed?

    Yeah, summing up a whole complex ideology in stupid soundbites is pretty failtastic.
    They don't. Or at least they shouldn't.

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