Carolean (Swedish) warfare

[GriffinZ]

Introduction: The problem is that Sweden during this era employed totally different tactics from everybody else. Without it, Sweden would outright had lost to the Danes because the lack of manpower, though in vanilla they are basicly the same as the others (infact the lack of manpower is subverted, swedish line infantry are cheaper then redcoats). I will list the biggest differences between the Carolean Swedes and other factions:

1. Serious lack of manpower. During the age of the Swedish empire (which happends to be the era of empire total war) almost every adult male was sent into battle, but still outnumbered by their enemies regular armies. This forced them too focus on other things then conscription, namely point 2 & 3.
   
   
2. Higher the morale! Caroleans was bombarded with protestant propaganda, they litterally fought for the King (who more often then not followed them into battle, obviously more often then not they was killed in battle) and therfor their Lord. "Oh my gawd!" and similar expressions was punished with the death among these soldiers.
   
   
3. Carolean tactics: basicly "don't fire until you see the white of their eyes" and or "blast them before impact" followed by "CHARGE". The tactic was used by infantry & cavalry, the main idea was "closer range, higher lethality", and to make the charge more devestating because the enemys front ranks with highered bayonetes was broken. Also when executed in very close range the enemy soldiers would see the hammer cock, and looked directly into the aiming eyes of the caroleans; at this range it was no more a gamble, it was execution by firing squad. Obviously this caused great panic for the reciving end. However it required alot of point 2, since marching into volleys were a horribly frieghtening experience, though at +-70 meters not very dangerous.
   
   
4. Pikemen. While everybody else ditched pikes in favour of muskets with bayonetes, Sweden had 1 pikemen per 2 musketeers -in the last years of E:TW. Also, Swedish pikes was much longer then those featured in the game, ironicly leading to them not using them (after the charge) just like vanilla pikemen. And the tip was just sharpend stick.

http://www.tacitus.nu/karoliner/tenn...Karoliner1.png this picture says alot

Major Problem: It isn't even possible to use carolean tactics because of the fire delay of all line infantry. No late pikemen, nor heavy cavalry with carbines.

Prupoused solution:
Somewhat lower all Swedish unit sizes while highering morale. Also Nerf line infantries and militia muskets (reload, accurcy) while buffing melee.

For example the militia would consist of 240 men, though greatly worse at long range, they will win against another militia blob because the melee bonus and higher morale.

Top priority: Modify the Swedish "foot soldiers" (and some of the special "regiments") to smaller companies that fire like skirmishers, though for compesation having even less acuracy, slower reload and less ammo. These are for leading the charge. They will fight like Caroleans mostly fought. However having little option to fight any other way, though thats why the line infantry are mostly un-edited.

Top priority: Make the Swedish unique unit, the "pikenerare" able for training in the late era. However I don't think you have animators and moddellers to make them hold the pikes like seen on the picture, and using the old animations for the long pikes would just be silly. And since it's mostly a visual thing I'll not say anything more about it.

I also think all factions that used guns for heavy cavalry should have a carbine like light dragoons, however only a few rounds, just like the pirate corsairs.

PS. if you think you remeber this thread it's because *someone* posted it on RTW forum

[trance]

Imperial Splendor II kind of catches these things, while not perfectly so, it's worth mentioning in my opinion. Swedish "regular" infantry are devided into two units, "värvat" and "indelat", the first one having lower morale but very high stats, the latter one having high morale but not as good stats. Both units have somewhat limited ammo supplies, worth looking into at least!

P.S Oh I'm tired, didn't see this was in the DarthMod subforum. Actually, OPs points was the reason why I stopped playing DarthMod and converted to IS instead. I completely endorse the OP!

[MatrixStorm]

Well, I must say that this information is very interesting.
I'll give you +rep just for the history lesson.

Also, this looks like a nice new sub-mod idea...realistic Sweden.

[Geronimo2006]

Pikemen. While everybody else ditched pikes in favour of muskets with bayonetes, Sweden had 1 pikemen per 2 musketeers -in the last years of E:TW.

The last years of ETW? That would be 1799. Did you mean "the first years of ETW"? I knew they retained the pikeman longer than other countries but I understood that was only until 1720.

[Xwhyzed]

Though these changes would be nice for a player this would make the Swedish AI too weak.

[The King in the North]

I agree with what Xwhyzed said. Would be cool though, as a submod or such.

I did read that someone tried this( Could it have been Imperial Splendor? ) but that the Swedish AI couldn't use any tactics other than how it was programmed. That is Fire from distance unless you are more, if so, charge.
Would work as a player but facing the Swedish AI would probably not work.
Perhaps they solved it, I dunno.

[Tango12345]

As Xwhyzed said, this is all very well being played from the players perspective, but it would make Sweden far too weak when it is played by the AI-it would be shot to pieces in DarthMod.

[MatrixStorm]

As Xwhyzed said, this is all very well being played from the players perspective, but it would make Sweden far too weak when it is played by the AI-it would be shot to pieces in DarthMod.

Isn't the CAI in Darthmod 6.8 plus much smarter than the CAI of older versions of Darthmod?
Didn't they only fire in close range?

[Xwhyzed]

Isn't the CAI in Darthmod 6.8 plus much smarter than the CAI of older versions of Darthmod?
Didn't they only fire in close range?

You must mean the BAI.
The CAI was improved but I think the BAI is the same as version 6.7

Do they only fire from close range in your battles?

[GriffinZ]

While I'm playing the computer more often then not tries to close in. Though strangely in vanilla the computer did actually charge after firing the first volley if they was fired upon. But not very effectively considering only the first ranked fired.

I think the changelog said this was caused by different formations, and they was therefor removed because this was not how line infantry should work ...but actually thats how swedish infantry should work. Combined with light infantry firing (aka not in ranks) I think the AI may actually pull it off.

Though if not the AI would be able to use other swedish units, like line infantry. With bonuses like melee and morale I think they could be pretty balanced with regular BAI tactics. And maybe the ability to turn it on/off could sort it out. Meaning if you want to play the swedish champaign you would turn it on.

[GriffinZ]

And yes, the pikes was not used after 1720, though in Swedish terms this is very late indeed, 1718 was the end of the swedish empire and the caroleans (soldiers during king Charles X-XII). My bad.

Though this would be the middle of ETW wouldn't it? Some battles being fought 1650.

And keep in mind the main idea is to just add a unit similar to the pirates bucaneer to the swedes. The smartest thing would e to modify "Foot soldiers" to this since they atm are just fance line-infantry.

[Tango12345]

Speaking as someone who is pretty familiar with the DarthMod AI, I would not do something like this unless it was done for all the factions at the same time. Which would take a very long time indeed, time we simply do not have at the moment.
If we were to do it just for Sweden as you suggest, then people would start to complain that it was not done for A, B, C, D etc etc etc so its an outrage and more things like that.

Also, the BAI as it is now works very well, we will not change it so much like you suggest without a very good reason.

More options in the launcher is highly unlikely, Hip63 is not here and he is the only one who can do things like that.

Also, about the pikes-the ETW period is 1700-1799. Anything before that does not count, and if something is only relevent up to 1720 it won't get included in the mod to this amount of detail, it would just be pointless.

[GriffinZ]

The only reason why sweden should be changed (infact get this addition) in the first place is that sweden did not fought like the other countries of the era. The real prupouse is to add a unit (or rather change regiment of foot and foot guard) to have light infantry firing mode aka. "fire at will", this is to get rid of the fire delay when issued an attack order (which can be around 15 seconds long)

I see no reason to change any other faction.

You see at the moment only 3 types of unit can be used for carolean tactics at all, and these are:
Milititia: No firiging drill, no delay.
Light infantry: no firing drill, no delay.
Pirate Buccaneer: no firing drill, no delay.

The problems with these units are that Militia are fodder, light infantry are really bad at melee and unlike musketeers are not much more lethal at short range, and the pirate buccaners, well, they are pirates and not Caroleans.

please don't double post

[Tango12345]

Could you please say why we should go to such trouble to do this if these soldiers were only around until 1720, a mere 5th of the way into the ETW campaign?

If you really want these tactics, IS already has them included.

[GriffinZ]

And if you wonder what this delay thingy is about I'll describe it now since I haven't done it before on this particular forum.

Scenario line infantry vs line infantry:
The Prussians opens fire at 110 meters and kills about 20 of the Swedes who continue marching. At 50 meters the Swedish soldiers gets ordered to open fire while the Prussians are currently reloading their rifles. 10 seconds later the Swedes haven't yet opened fire, they've actually havent done anything, though 20 seconds have passed since the Prussians opened fire at first and the first rank have reloaded. Now the prussians opens fire once again, at 50 meters! The swedish first rank is totally decimated, and the first volley (if it ever comes) is greatly weekend. This scenerio can develope into 3 different paths, all ending with the same thing, the Swedes will now either
a) reposition to fill the first rank, the few surviviors of the old first rank will reload and halt the next volley with 20 seconds, which will never come due to panic from enemy volleys.
b) they ignore the losses and fires volleys from the 2 ranks that are left, however, greatly weekend they will inflict minor damage, charge and instantly route
c) they instantly panic and route.

It's all caused of the way firing drill works, because the advining line infantry will never get the first shoot, not at range, nor when they closed in.

[Tango12345]

Perhaps you could answer my question?

[GriffinZ]

Could you please say why we should go to such trouble to do this if these soldiers were only around until 1720, a mere 5th of the way into the ETW campaign?

If you really want these tactics, IS already has them included.

Yes, the pikemen was only around until 1720, and the name "Caroleans", though that was merly a name of the soldiers during the rule of the Kings named Charles. However "these soldiers" are IN the mod in the late era which might been a cause of the confusion. The ONLY late era infantry uniforms I can say is correct is the "lifeguards on foot" which are really "Gustavianer", common soldiers during King Gustaf 1770-90.

But all in all, I then have to agree if it's 1700 that is early and 1799 late, then there is no point for continuing this. I was under the impression 1650 was "early" since some scenarios are played that time.

[Geronimo2006]

Yes, the pikemen was only around until 1720, and the name "Caroleans", though that was merly a name of the soldiers during the rule of the Kings named Charles. However "these soldiers" are IN the mod in the late era which might been a cause of the confusion. The ONLY late era infantry uniforms I can say is correct is the "lifeguards on foot" which are really "Gustavianer", common soldiers during King Gustaf 1770-90.

But all in all, I then have to agree if it's 1700 that is early and 1799 late, then there is no point for continuing this. I was under the impression 1650 was "early" since some scenarios are played that time.

The only parts of the game set in the 1600s are the early "Road to Independence" American campaign and the campaign map before independence is exclusively in the Americas so Sweden doesn't come into it before then.

[GriffinZ]

not in the champaign, yes. That makes me wonder why the game didn't start with 1600 :/

[FriendoftheDork]

And if you wonder what this delay thingy is about I'll describe it now since I haven't done it before on this particular forum.

Scenario line infantry vs line infantry:
The Prussians opens fire at 110 meters and kills about 20 of the Swedes who continue marching. At 50 meters the Swedish soldiers gets ordered to open fire while the Prussians are currently reloading their rifles. 10 seconds later the Swedes haven't yet opened fire, they've actually havent done anything, though 20 seconds have passed since the Prussians opened fire at first and the first rank have reloaded. Now the prussians opens fire once again, at 50 meters! The swedish first rank is totally decimated, and the first volley (if it ever comes) is greatly weekend. This scenerio can develope into 3 different paths, all ending with the same thing, the Swedes will now either
a) reposition to fill the first rank, the few surviviors of the old first rank will reload and halt the next volley with 20 seconds, which will never come due to panic from enemy volleys.
b) they ignore the losses and fires volleys from the 2 ranks that are left, however, greatly weekend they will inflict minor damage, charge and instantly route
c) they instantly panic and route.

It's all caused of the way firing drill works, because the advining line infantry will never get the first shoot, not at range, nor when they closed in.

Regardless of time scale, this is something that bothers me in general and makes 18th century warfare silly.

If there was some way of fixing the formations so that line inf could quickly for a line and fire after marching I would appricate it. I even have this problem in Blue & Grey.