Nihilism

[cardnals100]

I feel like this topic has come up on this forum before but...

My friend basically is trying to argue for Nihilism now and I don't really have much of an answer to him,his argument is something like this:

I'm saying that there is no purpose beyond our humanity
for example if the earth were to end for some reason, like a meteor or something were to strike, then there would be no life anymore and the universe would still function; life is a small part of the universe and it is also rare

Oh and I wouldn't like any religious answers.

[Trax]

I agree 100% with that quote above, however I wouldn't describe myself as nihilist.

[SigniferOne]

Oh and I wouldn't like any religious answers.

I'm afraid there are no consistent non-religious answers. You've touched upon one of the big ones here, one of the most important arguments for religion. Atheism is essentially nihilistic, in the same way that the life of an animal is essentially nihilistic.

[Jack04]

Can't say I disagree with what he's saying. From the point of view of the universe (were it to have a point of view) life is entirely unimportant. I really don't see the problem with accepting that.

[The Dude]

I'm afraid there are no consistent non-religious answers. You've touched upon one of the big ones here, one of the most important arguments for religion. Atheism is essentially nihilistic, in the same way that the life of an animal is essentially nihilistic.

Sig, you once again manage to make some wonderfully inflated claim about atheism that I for the life of me can't justify philosophically or theologically.

Seriously, atheism is essentially nihilistic? Certainly not in the metaphysical sense, for that would be the belief that there is no such thing as individuality. That seems strange to me, since such a thought is closer to theistic thinking than atheist thinking.

So perhaps epistemological nihilism could be the case, well in that case we would have to believe that knowledge, or at least certain knowledge is not possible. Considering most atheists are fairly big on the empirical method, that seems contradictory to me.

Moral nihilism, the idea that there's no such thing as morality? Well, I'm tempted to give you that one but even then that's just one of three aspects and even then only to a limited degree since many atheists don't dismiss morality at all but just ground it in something else than god. Which makes it relativist, sure, but relativism and nihilism are two different things.

[SigniferOne]

Who is to say the the immensity of the universe diminishes the value or worth of our miniscule part in it?

It doesn't. It just means that your lump of cells is not any more important than a rock over there. Not less important either, but not more important.

Moral nihilism, the idea that there's no such thing as morality? Well, I'm tempted to give you that one

That's the only one that I was talking about. Obviously atheism does not produce metaphysical nihilism.

But on epistemological nihilism there's actually something there. There is no necessary reason why you can know anything, so there's at least a seed of epistemological nihilism there. As we've seen in other threads, modern atheist science now discovers with cold hard proofs that actually the universe is utterly unknowable. It's a mutilation and a violation of everything classical Western science has stood for, but the atheist has no choice but to accept that point of view.

And of course moral nihilism is the other main one, the one that the OP was mostly concerned about.

Which makes it relativist, sure, but relativism and nihilism are two different things.

Are they, really, at the end of the day?

That there is no right answer, and that no right answers exist, are awfully interchangeable.

[Gordon Freynman]

My friend basically is trying to argue for Nihilism now and I don't really have much of an answer to him,his argument is something like this:


Oh and I wouldn't like any religious answers.

His argument is basically correct, there really is no purpose for us other than what we make for ourselves. Unfortunately I don't think you'll find a non-religious answer to it.

[Himster]

How can you know that there's no purpose beyond our own humanity?

To assert that there is no gold in alaska you'd have to search the entire state and record everything that you find, it's an absurd assertion. To admit to having witnessed or felt no evidence in favour of an intrinsic value to existence, is a totally different matter.

Atheism is essentially nihilistic, in the same way that the life of an animal is essentially nihilistic.

Lol, all those poor nihilistic buddhists. Well they do often treat animals with undue respect, maybe you're on to something.

[chriscase]

Our existence may not have the naive significance such as what theists often teach to children.

Yet the lack of a simple, comforting answer - such as the all-powerful Creator who cares so very much about us - should not send us off to pout like petulant children - "If God didn't create the whole universe just for me then everything is meaningless!" To me, this is just the antithesis of the naive theist view, and as such, does not succeed in distancing itself from it. Maturation requires moving beyond the naive theistic worldview as well as its antithesis.

How are we to assess the worth of our existence? Who is to say the the immensity of the universe diminishes the value or worth of our miniscule part in it? The ability to think and explore, using science and mathematics - so far beyond the reach of our senses gives us the awesome gift of apprehension - partial though it necessarily is - of the immensity of the very universe that dwarfs us. What a gift.

[Trax]

One could argue, that while life is pointless, we should do our best to make it at least as comfortable to as many as possible, considering that there will be no divine reward for earthly sufferings.

[Himster]

To be fair nihilism can just be slapped onto anyone that rejects a single value that you hold to be true, it's modern usage has become so broad it's basically useless.

Nihilism (pronounced /ˈnaɪ.əlɪzəm/ or /ˈniː.əlɪzəm/; from the Latin nihil, nothing) is the philosophical doctrine suggesting the negation of one or more meaningful aspects of life.

[chriscase]

I agree with Himster for once.

Sounds like a slippery slope argument: If you reject my cherished notion of God, you may as well be Stalin or Pol Pot.

[Lord Romanus III]

When you use the term 'purpose' it leaves me hard to work it out. What he is stating is fact: the universe will continue to function without earth and the life on it. But when he says universe, he has to take in to account that the universe is less without life. The universe becomes smaller, when your next to nothing chanced species and the other life around us disappears. Life seems to be fairly scarce in the universe (if existant at all) and this would diminish what the universe has.

[Trax]

It doesn't. It just means that your lump of cells is not any more important than a rock over there. Not less important either, but not more important.

But it is more important, because it is rare, we tend to instinctively place an higher value to all things rare.
Life is rare in the Universe and therefore immensely valuable.

[SigniferOne]

we tend to instinctively place an higher value to all things rare.

"we"? Who cares for weak human anthropocentric superstitions?

[Jack04]

"we"? Who cares for weak human anthropocentric superstitions?

Strangely enough, humans do. Surely the whole point of this is that, as the only intelligent species (that we know of) within the universe, we are free to place whatever value we wish upon ourselves, because that's the only value that matters at the end of the day even if, in the grand scheme of things, we are an irrelevance. We can be quite justified in feeling that we are incredibly valuable in the universe and yet it would be naive (and frankly, utterly ridiculous) to think that an outsider looking into our universe would feel the same. Ultimately it will be the value of our existence that we place on ourselves that will be used to justify our actions, after all.

[black-dragon]

Who cares for weak human anthropocentric superstitions?

People who subscribe to Christianity, for one. The universe being created just for us? Seriously?

[chriscase]

"we"? Who cares for weak human anthropocentric superstitions?

Ok. To whoever has hijacked Siggy's account: He's gonna be pissed when he gets back.

[SigniferOne]

Ok. To whoever has hijacked Siggy's account: He's gonna be pissed when he gets back.

I'm just taking your premises to their ultimate conclusions.

To ascribe some sort of significance to man, to life, is utterly inconsistent on the atheist view. If I subtract Christianity, what I said above about weak stupid human delusions of his own pathetic significance, becomes true.

You are nothing but an ape, a few DNA strands away from a dumb fruit fly, as your leaders, Hitchens and Dawkins never tire of telling us. Well let's take them and the wares they peddle seriously.

[chriscase]

I'm just taking your premises to their ultimate conclusions.

To ascribe some sort of significance to man, to life, is utterly inconsistent on the atheist view. If I subtract Christianity, what I said above about weak stupid human delusions of his own pathetic significance, becomes true.

You are nothing but an ape, a few DNA strands away from a dumb fruit fly, as your leaders, Hitchens and Dawkins never tire of telling us. Well let's take them and the wares they peddle seriously.

The rejection of rank superstition backed up by the desert scribblings of some ancient Semites hardly requires me to accept a single word of your supposed conclusion. "We don't know" is a perfectly reasonable position to take, especially when we don't.