The Byzantines stole my Thieves' Guild Headquarters!

**painter** · January 14, 2011, 09:41 PM

The Byzantines have not one inn-type structure in all of their cities and yet somehow they still managed to steal the Thieves' Guild Headquarters from under my nose! And Constantinople's governor is a high chivalry general.

At least now I know I can start tearing down all the excess Thieves' Guild and Master Thieves' Guild.

**rebelyell2006** · January 14, 2011, 09:45 PM

That makes sense. The Byzantines were known for their advanced system of spies and spy training. Constantinople was a pretty large and powerful city compared to the dirty hovels of western Europe, and the Eastern Empire was just starting to decline from their bureaucratic society.

**painter** · January 14, 2011, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by rebelyell2006

That makes sense. The Byzantines were known for their advanced system of spies and spy training. Constantinople was a pretty large and powerful city compared to the dirty hovels of western Europe, and the Eastern Empire was just starting to decline from their bureaucratic society.

But the thieves' guild depends on the inns and the ability to recruit spies. As far as I can tell, my Byzantium had no ability to recruit any spy nor had I encountered any spies from the Byzantines in over thirty turns. And despite this, not only Constantinople had the guild HQ, their two other cities had the guild houses as well.

**Sulfurion Blackfyre** · January 14, 2011, 09:55 PM

Hm, I once tried to get the Hashashin's guild while playing Egypt. I got Cairo, Jerusalem and Antioch developing a lot, hiring lots of assassin's in those cities, assassinating lots of folks (got faction leader full dread) and then... I get the guild in................. Jedda

**rebelyell2006** · January 14, 2011, 10:20 PM

The triggers for a Thief's Guild:
Low governor chivalry/high governor dread - 2 points
Construction of Brothel/Inn/Tavern/Coaching House/Pleasure Palace - 10/15/20/25/30 points
Recruitment of spies - 10 points
Infiltration of spies in other settlements - 2 points
Completion of Spy missions (faction missions) - 10 points
Completion of Spy missions (guild missions) - 10 points, but lose 10 guild points if player fails this mission

So it is not entirely impossible for the Byzantines to get the headquarters before you, or any other faction, if they play their cards right and have horrible governors. Plus the AI cheats, so there you go.

**painter** · January 14, 2011, 11:10 PM

I can accept the Byzantines having the headquarters if it made sense. But they haven't met any of the guild requirements to earn the guild's interest. They don't have any of the inn structures, they are unable to recruit any spies, once they have lost their initial spy they will be unable to conduct more spy missions, and Constantinople's governor is a six Chivalry general. Checking through older saves, it appears to have been that way at least since turn 33 and Constantinople had the Master Thieves' Guild at that time.

**rebelyell2006** · January 14, 2011, 11:21 PM

As I said, the AI cheats at hard and very hard levels in terms of economics and construction times. It would not surprise me if the AI gets guild point boosts as well.

**eggthief** · January 16, 2011, 08:08 AM

Look, I never build inns and the first offer I receive when one of my cities has been upgraded, is whether I want to build a thieves' guild. The guild is simply way too easy to obtain.

**painter** · January 16, 2011, 08:38 AM

The Byzantines didn't even had brothels or an alternate building to recruit spies with. Without brothels to recruit spies from, it would have taken their sole spy ~480 turns (including the normalisation) to acquire the 500 guild points required. At age 30, their initial spy would have died after only 60 turns, if he survived that long. 95% chance is only one in twenty.

Unless the AI is capable of demolishing their own buildings?

**Fireright** · January 16, 2011, 09:52 AM

I've long had the suspicion that the pesky ai is a bit quick off the mark with master guilds and HQs and all that.

little rascal.

**Double A** · January 16, 2011, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by rebelyell2006

That makes sense. The Byzantines were known for their advanced system of spies and spy training. Constantinople was a pretty large and powerful city compared to the dirty hovels of western Europe, and the Eastern Empire was just starting to decline from their bureaucratic society.

M2. IS. NOT. REAL. LIFE.

Originally Posted by painter

But the thieves' guild depends on the inns and the ability to recruit spies. As far as I can tell, my Byzantium had no ability to recruit any spy nor had I encountered any spies from the Byzantines in over thirty turns. And despite this, not only Constantinople had the guild HQ, their two other cities had the guild houses as well.

Every faction gets a starting spy, I guess they just used it a lot.

Have you checked their Asia Minor territories? Or you could just conquer Constantinople, it'll save you the trouble.

**painter** · January 16, 2011, 11:10 AM

I've already estimated the impact of their sole spy. It is only 2 guild points per successful mission. Assuming that spy is very productive and never get caught for his usual lifespan of 60 years, he's only going to get the Byzantine 85 guild points. The only way for a single spy to collect that much guild points is if the thieves' guild commissions a spying mission, never before seen, on every turn.

Their Asia Minor holdings are all castles and I double checked their buildings nonetheless. Not a single building that may recruit spies.

Yes, I could just conquer Constantinople, but it is still far too early in the game for that at this time. There is still a long way to go before the Timurids and the Aztecs and I need something to help keep me occupied in the meanwhile.

By the way, when it comes to guild points to building guild upgrades, are they cumulative or do we need to start over from scratch? As in acquiring the guild headquarters, do we need only 500 points in the settlement or do we need 850 points?

Edit: My normalisation calculation is a bit off. I had thought it started at turn 20, but it actually starts after turn 25.

**Double A** · January 17, 2011, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by painter

I've already estimated the impact of their sole spy. It is only 2 guild points per successful mission. Assuming that spy is very productive and never get caught for his usual lifespan of 60 years, he's only going to get the Byzantine 85 guild points. The only way for a single spy to collect that much guild points is if the thieves' guild commissions a spying mission, never before seen, on every turn.

Their Asia Minor holdings are all castles and I double checked their buildings nonetheless. Not a single building that may recruit spies.

Yes, I could just conquer Constantinople, but it is still far too early in the game for that at this time. There is still a long way to go before the Timurids and the Aztecs and I need something to help keep me occupied in the meanwhile.

By the way, when it comes to guild points to building guild upgrades, are they cumulative or do we need to start over from scratch? As in acquiring the guild headquarters, do we need only 500 points in the settlement or do we need 850 points?

Edit: My normalisation calculation is a bit off. I had thought it started at turn 20, but it actually starts after turn 25.

Too early? Maybe you should tell that to half of Europe.

**EmperorDan** · January 17, 2011, 08:52 AM

About demolishing a guild house: don't do it! I've read somewhere that it will hurt your rep with other guild aswell and that might hurt you if you`re looking to obtain merch guild or explorers guild.....

**Old Geezer** · January 18, 2011, 08:31 AM

I don't think demolishing a guild hurts your standing with any other line of guilds; I always demolish thieves guilds (well 97 percent of the time at least) and still am offered all the others and thieves guilds too.

**rebelyell2006** · January 18, 2011, 08:54 AM

trigger 0002_Guild_Destroyed
WhenToTest GuildDestroyed

Guild this s -100
Guild this o -20

from export_descr_guilds.txt

**painter** · January 18, 2011, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by DarkKnight

For triggers
Trigger: Names the trigger
WhenToTest: The event that must happen to fire the trigger. For a list of events see the docudemon files. Conditions can also be added to the event.
Guild: Identifies the guild affected
This: Identifies that the guild affected is the one specified in the event
All: Identifes that all guilds are affected
Named Guild: Identifies that the named guild is affected (ie: assassins guild)
s: Score increase in the settlement specified by the event
o: Score increase in the other settlements in the faction
a: Score increase in all settlements in the faction

Thus the trigger specifies that "the specific guild whose building was demolished loses 100 points of interest in the specific settlement. Also, the specific guild loses 20 points of interest in all other settlements." The other guilds are unaffected.

**Double A** · January 18, 2011, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Old Geezer

I don't think demolishing a guild hurts your standing with any other line of guilds; I always demolish thieves guilds (well 97 percent of the time at least) and still am offered all the others and thieves guilds too.

It does hurt your rep, but I guess you use so many spies it doesn't matter all that much.