Why is halberd militia so useless? (6.3)

[SirRobin]

I noticed that halberd milita is next to useless, and much weaker than basic spear militia. Surely the halbardiers should be more useful that spearmen, why else invent and use that weapon?


I did various experiments with them, both using their spear wall formation (they drop their pikes the moment the enemy connects) and regular formation, with and without defend mode active. Result: they get slaughtered by fatimid spearmen and tabardiyyah.

[misterbull]

Medium Difficulty Used for Testing
Head-on Collision (spear wall used by both AI and Player when available)
Both start marching at beginning of testing
Default Formations
Map: Normal Plains with Generally Level Terrain
Weather: Clear
Time: Morning

Spear Wall Used
Sicilian halberdiers 131 killed
English spearmen sergeants 24 killed
Victory: Halberdiers

Spear Wall Used for both Units
Teutonic halberdiers 212 killed
Sicilian Late Pikemen 57 killed
Victory: Halberdiers

Spear Wall Used
French Halberdiers 96 Killed
Fatimid Caliphate Tabadariyaa 147 Killed (2)
Victory: Tabadariyaa

Spear Wall Used
French Halberdiers 162
Fatimid Caliphate Heavy Spearmen 40
Victory: Halberdiers

No Spear Wall because Halberd Militia AI didn't use it
French Halberdiers 135(1)
Fatimid Caliphate Halberd Militia 65
Victory: Halberdiers

The only true test would be to use AI to use same formation on level terrain, but that's not possible at the moment.

I just used Halberd Militia and defeated Halberdiers because the AI kept retreating (not routing).

[Don in the North]

i think you need to tell them to attack a unit, letting them sit there and take damage makes them useless imo they sit there and get slaughtered. but so long as you tell them to attack they do something.
theyll still get slaughtered by tabardiyyah tho, those guy have massive attack compared.

[misterbull]

i think you need to tell them to attack a unit, letting them sit there and take damage makes them useless imo they sit there and get slaughtered. but so long as you tell them to attack they do something.
theyll still get slaughtered by tabardiyyah tho, those guy have massive attack compared.

I just tested it: Halberdiers vs Halberd Militia. Halberdiers (spear wall formation) defeat Halberd Men at Arms (no spear wall) as long as you are in spear wall formation and stay in formation or tell them to move forward in spear wall to attack.

If you just once press Halt when they are fighting (either spear wall formation standing or walking in spear wall), they will either reform or just stand there like idiots getting slaughtered by weaker men.


Edit: Halberd Militia cannot use spear wall, which makes them weaker than Halberdiers. But, Halberdiers are ing awesome.

[Ichon]

Nice of you to test it. Its been my experience nothing wrong with Halberds or Halberd militias. I usually switch to them as fast as possible but they also aren't quite as versatile as spearmen so it depends how you use them and for certain things spearmen still better.

[Paladin94610]

Halberd men at arms are European version of Janissary Heavy Infantry.

[Gogolometro]

Are slower and less effective than JHI.

[Moritol]

It is not the weapon that kills, it is the man behind it, and militia are no full time soldiers, so it is realistic that they get slaughtered by professionels.
One of the reasons I like RC\RR. Swiss halberds are a nightmare for any unit.
Besides you used them most times against non plate armor units, so they don't get much bonus and a spear is a faster weapon.
On custom battle, halberds are not so heavily armoured, if you upgrade them in the game they become better.

[SirRobin]

Thanks for all feedback and testing done ! I must add that the reason that I posted the question is that I just lost my two crusade provinces in Anatolia after holding them against fatimid attacks for around 100 years.

With spear militia, I could hold those cities, but not when I upgraded my forces to halberd militia.

Perhaps it is because, as one poster wrote, I need to tell them to attack.

It's just odd that they seem to get cut down when the spear militia would have held out.

The spear wall formation seems useless, as the second and third row soldiers just stand there pointing their weapon at the enemy, never striking, then when they confront enemy soldiers directly, they lower their halberd from the spearwall pose and start hacking away very slowly.

I think my lack of success with halberd militia is due to that, and also that the halberd militia attack much slower than spear militia.

[Gogolometro]

Tabbaritya like varagians are elite troops specialised in killing armored units like a upgraded armor halebard militia. They got bonus versus armor, bonus morale, better trained than militia being professional and are shock troops used especially against halebard and pikes in spear wall formation. Add to that the bonus AI get it when you play VH/VH. My recomandation, when face units like tabbaritya, varagians, huskarls axemans, pepper with arrows and bolts and or charge them with very heavy cavalry, or use HA to kill them from distance. Be wise, in melee, even scolari die fast versus an elike twohanded axemans, so after charge retreat imediatly.

[Ichon]

Halberd usually end up doing better in late periods because most enemy have heavier armor. However due to their slow attack and less defense than upgraded spearmen when they fight low armor mass enemies their bonus isn't effective and they won't do as well as spearmen would. So its best to still keep a slight mix and not switch entirely to halberds.

[SirRobin]

Halberd usually end up doing better in late periods because most enemy have heavier armor. However due to their slow attack and less defense than upgraded spearmen when they fight low armor mass enemies their bonus isn't effective and they won't do as well as spearmen would. So its best to still keep a slight mix and not switch entirely to halberds.

Good observation. My halberd militia had some armour upgrades, not sure about the enemy. I can imagine that my soldiers' bonus went largely to waste, while the enemy axemen had a field day against my tin can troops. Adding the spearwall problem (when not actively clicking attack), I can begin to see where I went wrong.

I lost my emperor and two brilliant provinces, an expensive lesson indeed ...

[John Haukewood]

If you want really unstoppable halberdiers, back them up with a pike unit.

[Moritol]

If you want really unstoppable halberdiers, back them up with a pike unit.

Yeah, sure. My ribault would laugh about that. Nothing is unstoppable.

[Gogolometro]

"Yeah, sure. My ribault would laugh about that. Nothing is unstoppable"

Good point! JHI are not unstopable, lancers are not, swiss pikes are not. All units can be counter somehow.

[k/t]

Halberd Militia can form spear wall, and I find them very useful and deadly, especially when overlapped with a Pike Militia. I use them until Halberdiers appear, which is 250 years.

[SirRobin]

Halberd Militia can form spear wall, and I find them very useful and deadly, especially when overlapped with a Pike Militia. I use them until Halberdiers appear, which is 250 years.

Do you set defend orders to those units? And do you stack them exactly in the same position so both units occupy the same space, or do you mean overlapping by having the pikes stand behind the halberd militia, with their pikes poking though the ranks in front?

When the enemy draws near, do you issue attack order to one or both units?

And do you use them to defend castle gates? I find in that situation, the enemy horde will push its way through, pikes in spear-wall formation or not, unless you as defender have more men at the gate, which is rarely possible.

[newt]

Do you set defend orders to those units? And do you stack them exactly in the same position so both units occupy the same space, or do you mean overlapping by having the pikes stand behind the halberd militia, with their pikes poking though the ranks in front?

When the enemy draws near, do you issue attack order to one or both units?

And do you use them to defend castle gates? I find in that situation, the enemy horde will push its way through, pikes in spear-wall formation or not, unless you as defender have more men at the gate, which is rarely possible.

+1
please share

[SirRobin]

I should add that the reason I'm clueless about this is that I always played in early era, and either won the game or lost interest once the late middle ages arrived. so I never used the late era units.

This has been an interesting game however.

[SirRobin]

On a related note, I just had a battle where the enemy general (unit type: mailed knight) ran uphill straight through a unit of pile militia, in bracing spearwall formation.. They didnt even try to stab him. Perhaps because of the slope of the hill?