The Shield Wall from BI

[Arman616]

This is the greatest thing BI has to offer, imo. This would best complement phalanxes. Can this be duplicated in the same manner as BI for EB? I mean, all it is, is making them get closer so that their shields approximately touch eachother. I mean, sometimes I think phalanxes are too loose in RTW/EB/RTR, and they need to be more solidifed and shoulder to shoulder. This also applies to Roman legionnaires in their shoulder to shoulder, unified fighting techniques.

Schiltrom is great too, but that might be harder to do; but it would be great if that could be added to EB too.

How is the EB team approaching this?

[QwertyMIDX]

Phalanxs (pike ones) weren't actually shoulder to shoulder, they had a little less than a meter between each man IIRC.

If we ever port to BI we'll make use of the shield wall though.

[Yamoto]

I hope for the BI shield wall.

[Pyrrus]

We dont actually know how close or far apart phalanxes actually fought. It is assumed that they were tightly pact together with their shields locked but today my lecturer said that an assosiate of hers, one of the leading authorities on greek military history, was begining to doubt whether they actually fought this close together. Most of the evidence we have to go on are simply vase paintings and reliefs

[guyyug]

not sure about phalaxe but i beleive the didnt fight shoulder to shoulder but close enough to lock sheilds but in a sheildwall they were always shoulder 2 shoulder

[Zenith Darksea]

Bear in mind that the aspis was a large shield and didn't quite allow them to fight shoulder to shoulder. Certainly the phalangitai, with their smaller shields, huddled closer together than hoplites. There are reports of soldiers tucking their right hand side underneath the protection of the shield of the man next to them, and as a result a phalanx could often drift to the right. Though I think that it's fairly certain that they were reasonably close together, because otherwise the tactic would be pretty pointless.

[Frost, colonel]

I always thought that it was the very density of the pikes presented that made it resistant to penetration. Also if they were packed as tight as functionality would allow would this not afford better missile protection?

It's just that a metre per man seems alot of room, would the straight forward hoplite phalanx have been tighter? I thought that the vase depictions etc show over lapped shields where as Zenith Darksea states that the large aspis actually stopped them being close. Surely heavily armed hoplites with shields over lapped/interlocked shields made for a very difficult formation to break from the front?

Another point I would make was that unless the enemy was as tight as you as it is not easy to fight packed if you are using a free fighting style as opposed to working together as a machine, then a tighter formation may mean that for every say 4 enemy in front you, you will present 5 men meaning you out number them on a killing front

In game I have sometimes placed a phalanx within a phalanx to see how the exaggerated density works and it certainly does.

[Fondor_Yards]

There is a "shield wall" ability for some units. I have only found it for a handful of germanic units so far, but I am sure others have it. It's the same shieldwall used in SPQR. Select a unit of german lancers or night raiders and press the "loose formation"(c) button and they will form a shield wall.

[Arman616]

There is a "shield wall" ability for some units. I have only found it for a handful of germanic units so far, but I am sure others have it. It's the same shieldwall used in SPQR. Select a unit of german lancers or night raiders and press the "loose formation"(c) button and they will form a shield wall.

what the, is this for EB?

[Big_John]

what the, is this for EB?

yup, it's in the OB, check it out. :original:

[Zenith Darksea]

To clarify, I meant that the size of the aspis prevented them from being as close as say, phalangitai were. They were still pretty close, in my opinion, but the size of the aspis meant that being too close would be impractical in combat. Of course I would say that the hoplite's main weapon was his aspis (shield), not his dorytion (spear), in that the deciding factor in phalanx warfare was which phalanx could push the hardest, as then they would knowck the enemy out of formation and the battle would be over.

[QwertyMIDX]

To clarify, I meant that the size of the aspis prevented them from being as close as say, phalangitai were. They were still pretty close, in my opinion, but the size of the aspis meant that being too close would be impractical in combat. Of course I would say that the hoplite's main weapon was his aspis (shield), not his dorytion (spear), in that the deciding factor in phalanx warfare was which phalanx could push the hardest, as then they would knowck the enemy out of formation and the battle would be over.

There are quite a few military historians who hold that the traditional hoplite probably fought in a tighter formation than the phalangitai. Further, the drift to the right was much more a feature of the traditional phalanx than the Macedonian one, this is less contenious than the previous point, the drift to the right is pretty generally excepted to have been a product of the shieldwall like traditional phalanx, rather than the pike block style Macedonian.

[Arman616]

So, the EB team wouldn't want to tighten the gaps for EB, with the RTW engine? A la SPQR?

[Zenith Darksea]

There are quite a few military historians who hold that the traditional hoplite probably fought in a tighter formation than the phalangitai.

Perhaps, though personally I doubt that they did. Nonetheless, there's no utterly conclusive evidence either way. I can't imagine why a sarissa phalanx would be more spaced out, considering the smaller size of the shield and the greater effectiveness of the more compact formation.

Further, the drift to the right was much more a feature of the traditional phalanx than the Macedonian one, this is less contenious than the previous point, the drift to the right is pretty generally excepted to have been a product of the shieldwall like traditional phalanx, rather than the pike block style Macedonian

Well, ok. I expressed myself badly. I was talking about phalanges in general, be they pike or hoplite phalanges.

[Arman616]

Question: Will the push-to-breakup-formation technique going to be implemented and somehow modded into EB? Because this technique presumably had greating bearing on the era, when concerning legionnaires and hoplites.