Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 65

Thread: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    I would like to start by saying I have been doing a lot of thinking on the matter of democratic government - the common, age-old system of representative democracy being my initial starting-point, and how to reform it, for it is undeniably, in so many countries, corrupt, unrepresentative, and self-serving, to a point where so many people in Western societies are thoroughly and abjectly disillusioned with not just the parties and individuals, but the system of government itself. Where people no longer dislike this party, or that party, but regard the entire edifice with suspicion and contempt. As well they should. It would be quite reasonable to suggest that, under siege from an ever-weary, ever-divided public, politicians have edged together, coming closer and closer to a political centre, forming an unmovable schiltrom over the terrain of government, a schiltrom that either destroys, or worse absorbs into it's prickly mass those who engage against it.

    The liberal democrats, in my country, were arguably such a force. They waited at the edge of the battlefield, and then, when they had enough men, went to the centre, where the Conservatives and Labour stood, their pikes arrayed in all directions - not merely against one another, but to the outside as well. And, as the Lib's approached, at double time and with every intent on crashing into the meleé, both sides, instead of making to resist them, threw open their arms and said "Come! Help us defeat our hated foe!"

    Sorry for the poor analogy, but that's the closest comparison to the political battleground I can think. Two massive forces push and drive into each other in a stalemate. Some gain more men at any one time than others, some lose some, sometimes one side drives the other back. A third came, however, and would have ended the battle, but instead of a shattering charge, they simply joined the other side, and were absorbed into the grinding, wearying meleé that has so worn down the British nation.

    The same can be said of Ron Paul and his libertarians. While less significant than the Liberal Democrats in terms of the percentage of the electorate, they to represented a growing interest, of those disillusioned with the two conventional parties. And they to, were absorbed, by the 'Tea Party', and became just another facet of the Republican Party.

    So, we may conclude that the battle can not be won. It will grind on until the end of time, faction against faction, until we are all so exhausted and worn that our fates are decided not by the push of the mass, but by champions, like the Celts of old.


    My suggestion?

    Direct Democracy. We have the technology. What percent of the UK, or the US, is on Facebook? How many million? All uploading vast quantities of data - pictures, videos, etc. Could we not do the same for government?


    You have one website. www.parliament.gov.uk, but now, instead of just a frontpage, you can actually vote on matters! It's a political forum for every man and woman in this country.

    But, here's the kicker. Instead of paying £80,000 PA, plus expenses, to 500+ MP's, the people who vote on this are you. You, me, everyone. The entire eligible population of the British Isles, submitting and voting on the legislation that rules their everyday lives.

    But what about people who don't vote? Decisions are made by those who show up. If you're not interested in an issue, you're under no obligation to express that interest, no obligation to vote, and no obligation to read about it. Just like now, only, if you do care, and you do want to be involved in governing your own nation, you can read it, and you can directly influence whether it gets through parliament or not.

    This is the ultimate devolution of power. Power to the people.


    What about decisive decision-making?
    Retain the executive. We can have a PM, and a cabinet, and indeed a civil service and all the trappings of society. Same issue here.

    Who will submit legislation: Well....everyone. I would suggest a £100-£200 fee for doing so (to discourage frivolous legislation), and that to do so, you would have to hand in the legislation yourself, by hand, at the capital, or send a representative to do so. After that, the only person who may amend or alter that bill is you (though people may obviously request you to do that, though those requests would be screened for hate mail and so on). A new sub-forum is then created on the government website, for discussion of various aspects of the bill. The bill can be up for a minimum of 1 month, and after that, the individual posting it will decide when to put it to a vote. Voting will take place across an additional week, on a simple Yay/Nay basis. The votes will be tallied electronically.
    Any bill passed will be ratified by both the executive and the legislative branch, as per normal.



    Who will vote: Anyone eligible to vote, as of now, will be able to create a profile on the government website. This will require a fair amount of personal information. Any person either defrauding the government, or selling information, or otherwise knowingly abusing the democratic right of the British people, would be sentenced to lifetime in prison, without parole.

    Voting will also be suspended over December and 2 weeks into January, but will otherwise remain open.

    Tyranny of the majority: A constitution, amendable by only a 2/3rds majority of votes, is a good idea here, assuring freedoms for everyone - lots of personal freedoms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  2. #2
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    I agree the current system of government is broken but I think the current system has broken the population as well and I am not prepared to put my trust in a majority who would accept capital punishment and lynch mobs for paedophiles - the only paper that is rising in circulation is the Daily Star. Ruminate on that and tell me what that makes you think about our current society?

    I posted on my website and on this forum about education recently as I think that is partly to blame for making education and intellectual pursuits hated, and has helped form the celebrity culture but that does mean people care more for Cheryl Cole than issues.

    I'm afraid I view the tyranny of the majority as just that, a tyranny and no better than our current tyranny. Better I stick with the devil I know.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    I agree the current system of government is broken but I think the current system has broken the population as well and I am not prepared to put my trust in a majority who would accept capital punishment and lynch mobs for paedophiles - the only paper that is rising in circulation is the Daily Star. Ruminate on that and tell me what that makes you think about our current society?

    I posted on my website and on this forum about education recently as I think that is partly to blame for making education and intellectual pursuits hated, and has helped form the celebrity culture but that does mean people care more for Cheryl Cole than issues.

    I'm afraid I view the tyranny of the majority as just that, a tyranny and no better than our current tyranny. Better I stick with the devil I know.
    Personally, I have no inherent opinion on capital punishment - other than I find it personally repugnant and physical disgust when I think about the sheer grotesquerie of the whole process.
    It tells me that a lot of our population are disinterested, apathetic and being used as playthings by a rather odious Australian chap (and persons like him). The issue with even acquiring a tyranny of the majority under a Direct Democracy is that, contrary to popular belief, people aren't stupid. They're poorly-informed, they're misguided, and they're often angry, but if we foster a climate of debate, rather than mindless attack - which this particular reform would do - things would improve. Show people that they can make a difference. Give people easier and more reliable access to the information collected by government. Actively encourage and indeed force people to get online, get their information right, and get informed.


    More stringent press regulations would also be a good idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  4. #4
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolling Thunder View Post
    Personally, I have no inherent opinion on capital punishment - other than I find it personally repugnant and physical disgust when I think about the sheer grotesquerie of the whole process.
    It tells me that a lot of our population are disinterested, apathetic and being used as playthings by a rather odious Australian chap (and persons like him). The issue with even acquiring a tyranny of the majority under a Direct Democracy is that, contrary to popular belief, people aren't stupid. They're poorly-informed, they're misguided, and they're often angry, but if we foster a climate of debate, rather than mindless attack - which this particular reform would do - things would improve. Show people that they can make a difference. Give people easier and more reliable access to the information collected by government. Actively encourage and indeed force people to get online, get their information right, and get informed.


    More stringent press regulations would also be a good idea.
    And if the majority vote that it is good to place laws restricting muslim movements? No thanks, this is to me, a morally bankrupt system you are proposing and what is more it relies on the hope that somehow people get more interested, or don't just vote themselves more benefits - and so on.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    And if the majority vote that it is good to place laws restricting muslim movements? No thanks, this is to me, a morally bankrupt system you are proposing and what is more it relies on the hope that somehow people get more interested, or don't just vote themselves more benefits - and so on.
    66% of people who would actually care enough about this, who actually care about the freedom of their fellow human beings and of themselves, who care enough to log on to a website and vote, would be the ones who were against freedom? (Remember: Personal Freedoms Guaranteed by a written Constitution).

    Frankly, that's so nauseating a thought I probably haven't given it due consideration. Or maybe Newcastle just makes me vaguely optimistic about humanity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Azog 150 View Post
    I don't think it could work on a national level. However, I think it could work on a more localised level. So you would keep parliament (Preferably voted in with STV) and the PM to make national decisions (Mainly infrastructure, defence and foreign policy) and make sure things are kept within a constitution. All other powers could be handed down to local level government, where it would also be easier to have a direct democracy.

    However, this still poses many problems. Not least what Denny mentioned- general political ignorance and the dangers of mob rule (Although as stated a constitution and higher national authority to enforce it could stop many of the dangers)
    Not to seem combatative, but MP's are not involved in infrastructure, defence and foreign policy to any great deal. The Highways Agency, MoD and Foreign Office are responsible for those things, and while elected officials within those organisations are doubtless a good thing, Parliament is an entirely useless appendage within this model. It has no benefit over direct democracy, other than people seem to trust people sneaky enough to be elected and ambitious enough to want to be elected, people with no guarantee of qualification on any matter at all, rather than the general public.

    If the public is corrupt, if it is stupid, if it is slothful and ignorant, then this nation is those things. Because there are no more plebs and patricans. Intelligence and education are a lot more prevalent in the general population than they have ever been. The people we elect to rule this nation are not massively more intelligent than those they rule, nor more moral, nor more trustworthy, as they have demonstrated time and time again!

    And yet we seem to worry about a Tyranny of the Majority? Yes, people can be influenced. Yes, people can be herded, and shepherded, and bullied and scared into believing some utterly idiotic things. But so long as you have a situation where there is no recourse to this, where there is not public debate, but public pissing matches, this is always going to happen. I would hope that the ensuing political debate within this proposed system would hopefully make people lean away from rhetoric and spin, and more towards compromise, debate and reasoning.


    Quote Originally Posted by eisenkopf View Post
    Well, the Swiss certainly have the most experience on this one with their semi-direct democracy. I suggest the OP reads up on them and amends his argument. I am too lazy to pre-digest freely available information. And there is lots. The Swiss state itself has lots of pages on the structures and procedures - in English. Go read it.

    I assure you sir, I really have no care for what the Swiss think on this matter, I prefer to make my own arguments and theories than regurgitate those of others.
    Last edited by Rolling Thunder; January 14, 2011 at 02:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolling Thunder View Post
    (...)
    I assure you sir, I really have no care for what the Swiss think on this matter, I prefer to make my own arguments and theories than regurgitate those of others.
    That's sad. How can argue about direct democracy while ignoring the biggest chunk of knowledge on theoretical and practical matters out there? Don't you want to know the state of the art before building an argument of your own?

    "The cheapest form of pride however is national pride. For it reveals in the one thus afflicted the lack of individual qualities of which he could be proud, while he would not otherwise reach for what he shares with so many millions. He who possesses significant personal merits will rather recognise the defects of his own nation, as he has them constantly before his eyes, most clearly. But that poor blighter who has nothing in the world of which he can be proud, latches onto the last means of being proud, the nation to which he belongs to. Thus he recovers and is now in gratitude ready to defend with hands and feet all errors and follies which are its own."-- Arthur Schopenhauer

  7. #7
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolling Thunder View Post
    66% of people who would actually care enough about this, who actually care about the freedom of their fellow human beings and of themselves, who care enough to log on to a website and vote, would be the ones who were against freedom? (Remember: Personal Freedoms Guaranteed by a written Constitution).

    Frankly, that's so nauseating a thought I probably haven't given it due consideration. Or maybe Newcastle just makes me vaguely optimistic about humanity.
    I don't know mate and to be honest that isn't the part I'm that concerned about. It is the principle of forcing people to live via the most populist notion. I'm not in favour of a society that employs force or coercion, I favour a voluntaryst society - though as many will leap to point out that may or in their opinion never be feasible.

    You talking about the same Newcastle I live in? Is so howdy! And I've encountered a fair lack of education, popularism and a great deal of racism, that is what makes me nervous. Geordies are a friendly bunch for the most part, more friendly than in other places I've been but underneath the surface there is divisiveness and distrust of minorities that often goes to pure outright racism. That is concurrent and correlated with education and wealth levels to a certain extent I believe. I say that because of the places where I encounter these attitudes.

  8. #8
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Stockholm, Sverige
    Posts
    22,877

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    Like the swiss proposal perhaps but I think direct diplomacy works best in smaller populations... maybe in small US towns.

  9. #9
    Azog 150's Avatar Civitate
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Liverpool, UK
    Posts
    10,112

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    I don't think it could work on a national level. However, I think it could work on a more localised level. So you would keep parliament (Preferably voted in with STV) and the PM to make national decisions (Mainly infrastructure, defence and foreign policy) and make sure things are kept within a constitution. All other powers could be handed down to local level government, where it would also be easier to have a direct democracy.

    However, this still poses many problems. Not least what Denny mentioned- general political ignorance and the dangers of mob rule (Although as stated a constitution and higher national authority to enforce it could stop many of the dangers)
    Under the Patronage of Jom!

  10. #10
    Atatürk's Avatar Türküm. Doğruyum...
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,235

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    Perhaps a bit too idealistic.

  11. #11
    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    6,044

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    I have no desire of being ruled by a mob.

  12. #12
    Atatürk's Avatar Türküm. Doğruyum...
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,235

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trax View Post
    I have no desire of being ruled by a mob.
    Couldn't agree more.

    Although unfortunately the way it works is that strong people like you and myself are suppressed by the weak who are the majority. They utilize their huge numbers through a system of method they call 'democracy'. I call it oppression.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atatürk View Post
    Couldn't agree more.

    Although unfortunately the way it works is that strong people like you and myself are suppressed by the weak who are the majority. They utilize their huge numbers through a system of method they call 'democracy'. I call it oppression.
    Lol. I don't know if this is satire, but if it is, it's pretty damn good. The sheer elitism on this forum truly astounds me. You'd think we were a collection of Nobel Laureates and leading figures in industry, not a bunch of random people who are probably no more or less intelligent than the average human being - indeed, probably are about as intelligent as the average, averages being what they are.

    All those people repeating 'Tyrannis Dei' over and over again....do you think that the people who want to ban Islam, who want to expell ethnic minorities, who want to lynch paedophiles - do you think they can get a large enough majority in a directly democratic election to actually form 66% of the total vote 'Yay' to amend the hypothetical Constitution of this nation. Do you really, really think that 66% of the people who actually care about this are that stupid?
    If that were the case, don't you think that men like Clegg/Cameron/Milliband would be catering to them already? If they were so vast a proportion, do you really think that politicians would have the scruples to not pander to their murderous bigotry? And yet...they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Rob View Post
    Oh and I wouldn't trust the future of my state on the security of a website any more than we already do. To digitilize it further is dangerous.
    Compared to the amount of state secrets you can access, elections aren't exactly a problem.


    @Denny Crane: Yes, same N'castle. I'm at uni here. Most of my family lives up around here (well, more County Durham). I like the idea of a volunteerist society to, and I'd like to think that this proposal is a way forward for that.



    The reason most people don't get involved in government, is because, beyond electing random pleb #1 vs. random pleb #2, they really don't have any say in how their nation is run. That is why people are apathetic, and that is why they are ill-informed and don't exercise proper critical reasoning to politics. And the only way to combat the growing disillusion and apathy with representative democracy is to involve people with it more - involve them in a way that they don't have to become party volunteers, or have to go cap in hand to their representatives asking.
    Last edited by Rolling Thunder; January 14, 2011 at 06:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  14. #14
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    26,766

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    I'd rather simply switch to PR and have us represented in that manner. I'd also require qualifications for posts: If you want to be made Chancellor of the Exchequer you have to actually have a background in economics, not just be part of the most popular party, etc.

    Direct Democracy is the worst possible form of Democracy: have referendums on a few key issues is fine, but for everything? How much intelligence do you credit the people at large with?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    Well, the Swiss certainly have the most experience on this one with their semi-direct democracy. I suggest the OP reads up on them and amends his argument. I am too lazy to pre-digest freely available information. And there is lots. The Swiss state itself has lots of pages on the structures and procedures - in English. Go read it.
    "The cheapest form of pride however is national pride. For it reveals in the one thus afflicted the lack of individual qualities of which he could be proud, while he would not otherwise reach for what he shares with so many millions. He who possesses significant personal merits will rather recognise the defects of his own nation, as he has them constantly before his eyes, most clearly. But that poor blighter who has nothing in the world of which he can be proud, latches onto the last means of being proud, the nation to which he belongs to. Thus he recovers and is now in gratitude ready to defend with hands and feet all errors and follies which are its own."-- Arthur Schopenhauer

  16. #16
    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    6,044

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    Normal people would be too busy with their lives tocare or vote.
    Most of the participants would be sick weirdos - probably the same kind of people who comment on internet news sites.

    First legislation would probably be something about getting rid of the Jews.
    Last edited by Trax; January 14, 2011 at 02:46 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trax View Post
    Normal people would be too busy with their lives the care or vote.
    Most of the participants would be sick weirdos - probably the same kind of people who comment on internet news sites.

    First legislation would probably be something about getting rid of the Jews.
    Decisions are made by those who show up. If people are too busy to log onto a goddamn website and check legislation (or just do so if they read about it in the paper), then...they're in exactly the same position they are now, except in a direct democracy, they can do something about it.


    Someone's going to spend £200 on getting rid of the Jews? I don't think that you can get more than 66% of people who actually vote, to vote for that, considering that I'm pretty sure that the Jewish community would have a lot to say about it...and I'd presume that they'd be quite happy to vote it down mercilessly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  18. #18
    city17citizen's Avatar Foederatus
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    45

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    If "Direct Democracy" means majority of people enforcing law, I'm against it. It wont work.

    In order to understand why, I advice to read works of Gustave Le Bon about crowd psychology.
    He presents many examples or analysis of the problem, and most importantly shows that Democracy should never ever be ruled without professional representation.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    I thinka hybrid approach would hold some merit. State level issues could be sovled in this matter pretty fairly. Its when your approach the national level do things get strange, like foriegn policy.
    I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you F___ with me, I'll kill you all.
    - Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders

    Nostalgia aint as good as it used to be

  20. #20

    Default Re: Direct Democracy: A Modest Proposal.

    When I see people proposing things like these, I can't help but wonder if they ever in their life attended even something as basic as a city council meeting or know any elected politicians.

    Last time I checked in with local politics one of the things on the agenda was adding a few pedestrian crossings to a moderately busy road here in my town. The councilmen who were gonna vote on this relatively simple issue were expected to literally read many hundreds of pages of background info - including studies on the effectiveness of the different types of crossings that were available and various recommendations, reports on how it might affect general traffic, letters of support or opposition from local residents, the economic and social benefits, costs and the whole financial picture and a whole lot of other crap that I either forgot or never bothered to read.
    Each councilman spent hour, days, reading, processing and debating these crossings, never mind the public servants who were involved in preparing the whole thing. And this wasn't pointless arguing either - I read some of those pieces, these were all things that needed to be discussed, especially since it concerned public money and public interests.

    Now I'm a generally well informed and intelligent person, but frankly I would refuse to vote on something as 'simple' as a few pedestrian crossings on a moderately busy road, simply because I know I'm ignorant on the subject. Which is fine, it would be creepy if I knew all the ins and out on pedestrian crossings. But thinking that people can make an informed decision about anything, just 'cause they're willing to make the effort to visit a website and click on 'vote' is, well, dumb.

    And seriously, £200 a deterrent? There's already people who are willing to spend tens of millions to get a single piece of legislation passed.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •