Modified Pikemen (no secondary weapon)

**PrestigeX** · January 13, 2011, 10:52 PM

Some of you may be playing your game (whether a mod, or your own customizations) in which the pike units have their secondary weapons removed. This way, they only fight with the pike and while it looks cool, and gets rid of that frustration in vanilla where they'd often drop their pikes at the first sign of trouble... It does make the pikemen near invincible.

I have lowered their attack stats by about 2 -3 points (depending on the unit) across the board, and it seems to help a little, but they're still too good - a line of pike militia routing even the best heavy infantry.

I realize each mod and variant has different stats, but using "Heavy pike militia" as a base, that has an attack of 10 ... where as a dismounted chiv knight has an attack of 13... Should I make the heavy pike unit's attack something like 6? and then reduce each pike unit across the board by 4 points to balance it out?

**rrgg** · January 14, 2011, 01:11 AM

Are the heavy infantry able to reach the pikemen or are they getting stabbed to death from a distance?

**shikaka** · January 14, 2011, 01:44 AM

With removing their secondary weapon, they become too powerful for that money.

The mod where I liked pikes was 'for king and country', they they worked.
BUT next to removing their secondary weapons, the modders changed their attack/defense values to the 1-3 range.
This way it works.

In SS, where the swords are also removed, the pikes became game-breaking, non-historical units.

Generally the best I ever so was in Kingdoms:Americas where secondary is not removed, BUT the New SPain's pikes actually change to it later.

**PrestigeX** · January 14, 2011, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by rrgg

Are the heavy infantry able to reach the pikemen or are they getting stabbed to death from a distance?

When attacked from the front, basically nothing gets through and the attacking unit is slaughtered. If they attack from the rear, they might even route a lowered morale unit but the pikemen will turn and start poking in whichever direction they are attacked.

Originally Posted by shikaka

With removing their secondary weapon, they become too powerful for that money.

The mod where I liked pikes was 'for king and country', they they worked.
BUT next to removing their secondary weapons, the modders changed their attack/defense values to the 1-3 range.
This way it works.

In SS, where the swords are also removed, the pikes became game-breaking, non-historical units.

Generally the best I ever so was in Kingdoms:Americas where secondary is not removed, BUT the New SPain's pikes actually change to it later.

Thanks, I tried lowering them to around that level and it seems to work. I left some units a little higher, like swiss pikes at 7, and noble pike / aventuro at 6 .. the regular pike units have a 5 or 4 depending, and the lowest tier have a 3 . The pikes are still very good, but not to the same extent - more expensive or elite heavy infantry is able to beat them head-on without taking too many loses. Unless they're fighting azabs, town miltia, or peasants, it will take pikemen a while to defeat enemy infantry - and they'll take casualties doing it. They still decimate cavalry which is what I'd hoped, but they will often take heavy casualties or lose depending which cavalry unit attacks them.
.

**rebelyell2006** · January 14, 2011, 11:27 AM

I've done this, and sometimes they are an unstoppable landslide of infantry, but when caught in the flank or rear the pike unit gets slaughtered very quickly. Have you tried fighting other pikemen with your pikemen? Very fun.

But then again heavy infantry and cavalry can get past the initial front row of pikes to get at the body of the pike unit if the pike unit is moving and not stationary, bracing. I've seen that too. If you think about it, it is somewhat true to history in that Swiss blocks were unstoppable landslides.

EDIT: the behavior of pike units depends in part on whether "Guard mode" is turned on or off. I think the AI keeps it on automatically which changes how quickly the unit will break ranks to attack. For example, the pike unit on the left had guard turned off, while the AI unit on the right probably had it turned on, which means they are still marching and holding their pikes upwards, instead of advancing pikes.

But then again I could post another image, of sword and buckler men that wiped out a unit of pike militia with few casualties.

EDIT 2: well, the picture won't upload. Shucks.

**PrestigeX** · January 14, 2011, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by rebelyell2006

I've done this, and sometimes they are an unstoppable landslide of infantry, but when caught in the flank or rear the pike unit gets slaughtered very quickly. Have you tried fighting other pikemen with your pikemen? Very fun.

But then again heavy infantry and cavalry can get past the initial front row of pikes to get at the body of the pike unit if the pike unit is moving and not stationary, bracing. I've seen that too. If you think about it, it is somewhat true to history in that Swiss blocks were unstoppable landslides.

EDIT: the behavior of pike units depends in part on whether "Guard mode" is turned on or off. I think the AI keeps it on automatically which changes how quickly the unit will break ranks to attack. For example, the pike unit on the left had guard turned off, while the AI unit on the right probably had it turned on, which means they are still marching and holding their pikes upwards, instead of advancing pikes.

But then again I could post another image, of sword and buckler men that wiped out a unit of pike militia with few casualties.

EDIT 2: well, the picture won't upload. Shucks.

After testing it out some more today, I decided to lower it by one more point for all pikemen as the units attack increases with experience and potential weapons upgrade. I also made all pike units more expensive by 200 florins or so, to match with their ability. They're still good against infantry, but not overwhelmingly so and basically any unit that "should" be able to beat pikemen will. Ie...dismounted knights, or zwei handers, or varagians, they can all beat pikemen -- especially if they use their mobility to surround the pikes they will suffer few loses. if it is the dubious ai vs. pikes, those elite units still have a chance fighting 'head-on' but it will end up with them losing a lot of men to attain victory - sometimes the pikes will beat elite heavy infantry, but it is by no means guaranteed as it was before.

As anti-cavalry, pikes rock but are balanced. A unit of pike milita (with armor upgrade) versus Italian Cavalry Miltia, was able to win, but half of their men were killed after 3 horse chages -- the italian cav fleeing with 1/3 of his men left. I put pike militia down to 2 attack, Scots pike get a 3. Regular pikemen (tercios, heavy pike militia, flemish, landsneckt) get a 4 now, 5 is for aventuros / noble pike, and the legendary swiss get a 6.

**The Chevalier** · January 15, 2011, 11:09 AM

They are meant to be over powered like this. How else did the pike and musket formations overcome adversity and become one of the leading formations and tactics of armies during the renaissance? They had to have started somewhere. It is historically correct. If you do not like, go fight in the east. The west is no place for little boys who cannot keep up in the technological race.

**John Haukewood** · January 15, 2011, 01:07 PM

However, it is not historically correct that pike formations would keep their pikes for the entire battle; in fact, the purpose of the pike formation against infantry was not to steamroll but to push the opposing infantry backward, to stun them and throw them into disorder before dropping their pikes and laying on with swords. So the vanilla method, if not powerful as it really should be, is at least correct historically.
Put a unit with some melee punch overlapping pikes (I use halberds or hand-gunners) and the pikemen will rarely use their swords while causing massive casualties with little micromanaging. That is how the swiss began; tight formations of pike and halberd. The halberds provide the close-range melee punch and protect the pikemen, while the range of the pikes protects the halberdiers and deals range damage. This type of formation is nigh unstoppable with guard mode off.

**PrestigeX** · January 15, 2011, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by John Haukewood

However, it is not historically correct that pike formations would keep their pikes for the entire battle; in fact, the purpose of the pike formation against infantry was not to steamroll but to push the opposing infantry backward, to stun them and throw them into disorder before dropping their pikes and laying on with swords. So the vanilla method, if not powerful as it really should be, is at least correct historically.
Put a unit with some melee punch overlapping pikes (I use halberds or hand-gunners) and the pikemen will rarely use their swords while causing massive casualties with little micromanaging. That is how the swiss began; tight formations of pike and halberd. The halberds provide the close-range melee punch and protect the pikemen, while the range of the pikes protects the halberdiers and deals range damage. This type of formation is nigh unstoppable with guard mode off.

Thats true, I never had much of a problem with them in Vanilla - playing as scotland it was like an unstoppable hoard of infantry - axes, great swords, and pikes.

But, I'm playing a modded version of the game (darth 1.4) so all the pikes have their secondaries removed, and all other units have been adjusted in cost and stats, formations, extra effects and animations, and certain other alterations have been made to the battle physics -- Thats why I wanted to tone done the pike units, because they all had attacks of 10 or 12 and it was just ridiculous. Other than the pike units, the battles in this mod are probably the best I've seen in any mod or version of m2tw (ai is really good in campaign and battle ). I wanted them to be effective against cavalry, and still able against infantry but not absurdly so, and i've got it about right.

**John Haukewood** · January 15, 2011, 07:38 PM

I see... I've been planning to try out Darth 1.4; this post should be a great resource then, as pike units are my favorite. Cheers!

**PrestigeX** · January 15, 2011, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by John Haukewood

I see... I've been planning to try out Darth 1.4; this post should be a great resource then, as pike units are my favorite. Cheers!

Other than toning down the pikes, the mod is totally awesome in my opinion. In Campaign The Ai is really vicious, they will even do things like recruit mercs and upgrade the merc's weapons