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Thread: musket lethality issue...

  1. #21

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    Indeed, I have played mods before where your soldiers run out of ammo in order to kill half a unit... I dont think this would be a problem with ROW though - the lethality balance is perfect. If light infantry mass-fire isnt overpowered, I dont think we would have to worry about dual rank fire for line inf.


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  2. #22
    airborne guy's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    I like the mass fire, I will let all men reload then mass again, its awesome!

  3. #23

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    Becouse line infantry would ran out of ammo before killing half of enemy units lol. Battles were about morale not kills!

  4. #24

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    clearly your representation of the 18-19 centuries is wrong... once again, muskets would not have been used if they did not kill so stop saying a battalion of line infantry killed 2 men and the rest ran away.. this was not the case.. i understand that morale played a huge part in warfare at the time but musket volleys killed hundreds of men on the battlefield. one volley would kill 1-10 men at a long distance simply for scare. however, up close volleys would obliterate lines.. go watch any accurate film of the time period and you will see... it wasnt 50 dead men on the battlefield it was thousands.. being from musket volleys and hand to hand combat.. at the battle of waterloo.. british squares did not kill 1-5 cavalry from volleys and then they just run... complete you have no idea what your saying at 30 ft hitting a target with a french flintcock musket was not very difficult.. at the battle of poltava in the great northern war.. the swedes did not run after one casualty so shut ur mouth and learn some
    quality history of the warfare in the time period before coming on this forum and talking smack like: " it was about morale not kills" this is absurd

  5. #25

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    please guys....there is no need for losing nerves. I agree with filipvonzietek, at maximum musket range the two sides would run out of ammo after killing not even half, but a 10-15% of enemy troops. Close firefights caused a far greater number of casualties, for example, during the firefight between the Consular Guard and the IR 51 at Marengo, one of the most cruel of the whole Napoleonic age, the two units fired for about 15 minutes separated by 30 meters, suffering a 60% of casualties each! Such encounters were rare, since two sides rarely closed at less than 50-70 meters before than the one with a lower morale retreated. Hand to hand combats between large units almost never materialised (the only exceptions being the battles fought against field fortifications like Borodino, were melees were frequent). A volley fired against an advancing enemy at few paces away was likely to have devastating effects, but only elite troops managed to stay cool and wait for the orders without panicking (this would be a nice addition for the game...in NTW even *y militia can wait for a melee with guard units or grenadiers without panicking when the enemy closes less than 50 meters )
    "What is difficult in training will become easy in a battle" Alexander V. Suvorov

  6. #26

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    Thats right Soult i agree in 100%. Consular gaurd recieved many battle honour after this engagement. Those man surely had balls of steel.
    40% casulties were exceptional for elite troops in single engagement, any other lesser troops would break after few moments of firefight at that range or even on sight of closing in enemy.

    I recomend you to read some books insated of watching movies. Not silly things like Sharpe but real historical ones dear 16 years old Trevor.
    Last edited by FilipVonZietek; January 30, 2011 at 09:19 AM.

  7. #27
    Prince of Essling's Avatar Napoleonic Enthusiast
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    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    Before people deploy passionate responses on casualties etc they should actually look at the facts.

    Among the best battlefield analysis of casualties from a particularly bloody battle, namely Albuera, is that by Major-General B P Hughes in "Firepower -Weapons Effectiveness on the Battlefield, 1630-1850". This is regarded as one of the classic works on the subject.

    In the firefight between the French V Corps and the Brigades of Hoghton & part of Colborne lasting about 45 minutes resulted in 3,000 French casualties (1,000 from artillery fire - caused by between 4 & 7 guns & 2,000 from musket fire from a roughly constant 1,350 men as casulaties were replaced) versus 1,500 British casualties (from about a constant 1,200 muskets). The conclusion was that casulaties were roughly 2% of the small arms ammo expended (at between 60 to 200 yards)! Artillery casualties were roughly 2 per round expended......

    His analysis of the clash between Werle's division & the Fusilier brigade shows a higher number of effectiveness - a mere 5.3% of rounds expended - but the firefight was at closer range and the British could deploy all of their muskets 1,900 versus 540! Some of the casualties on both sides were caused by artillery fire but it is not possible to make an attribution (British casualties 1,045 versus 1,800 for the French). This battle lasted 20 minutes at a range of mostly 30 to 40 yards! Maximum number of rounds that could have been fired was 40 per man, but with smoke, confusion etc it was more likely 20 rounds.

    So in conclusion I would have to say that musketry fire is way too effective (not just in this mod but across all mods & the orginal game).
    Last edited by Prince of Essling; January 30, 2011 at 04:22 PM. Reason: emphasis on conclusion, spelling
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  8. #28

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    In MP ner version i supervised musketery was right Sirously inf could stay engaged in firefight for 30 min without much casulties.

    Overall avarge kills per roundshot was 1, per canister form single cannon max casulties were 7 (most of them slight wounds, usually much less) usually much less but it was more range dpenedant than roundshot.

    At Alubera frenchies advance was hatled and they got peperred at pretty close range at some points. At Waterloo gaurd was stalled but it was somones scream "Guard is beaten" than made the assult break not firepower alone. (Old guard was kept back in reserve in case somone sayes blah blah muskets routed OG)

  9. #29

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    Lots of relevant points brought up by everyone here, but if you ask me there's little point: NTW is by defaul too far removed from reality to be able to make an accurate representation of real musket lethality: Seeing as were limited to a few thousand soldiers for even large battles, many of these rules simply cant be applied properly. For instance, comparing NOW and EIC (to be obnoxious): I like being able to obtain real victories in EIC because of lower morale, but at the same time it means you cant make proper battle strategies as well (such as hammer and anvil) because your men run too easily and/or are destroyed. This is the advantage of NOW. For NTW you have to pick one aspect of reality and implement it in your mod, you cant put all of them. EIC chose the 'few casualties compared to total number of engaged troops' analysis, whereas NOW chose the 'gruelling, lasting firefights and ability to assault/maneuver freely' analysis. My argument may sound slightly obtuse, but if you see what I mean it becomes pointless to debate over such a thing because of NTW's engine. Anything is an improvement over vanilla though...


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  10. #30

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    ya i agree.. but it brings me back to my point of this sub forum.. a battalion of British regulars(foot guards) fighting french peasants would be genocide at 20 meters.. and tje french routed my brits by a long shot.. these foot guards were so disciplined and trained in drill tactics that it wouldnt have been a battle.. but extermination.. i was just shocked and regardless of the limited NTW engine.. the british guards would rape..

  11. #31

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    by the way.. i said ACCURATE films.. im not talking about sharpe and no need to get angry because a 16 year old kid knows more about warfare than you do.. so yes no need to lose our nerves. im simply saying the musket wouldnt have been used if you couldnt kill with it.. they would have continued to use crossbows and such.. think about it i definately agree with you at long range but i was talking about 20 yards.. big difference to 150 yards..

  12. #32

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    Btw at Alubera avarge kill rate was 1 casulty per 400 shots (british sources) and they exchanged fire at medium range. Btw people forget about smoke after a while you couldntl iterally see anything, gl hitting something.

  13. #33

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    Just feel like spouting some random theory because the lack of activity here is unfortunate. I wonder if crossbows actually were more effective during the 18th and early 19th century. They were phased out because I suppose they were harder to manufacture en masse, were less intimidating and less effective against armour (which was still in use during the renaissance) and they couldnt be used with bayonettes so perhaps there wasnt a 'return to the crossbow' because people simply didnt know how effective it was. Seeing as they werent built any more military strategists wouldnt know. I just find it appalling that musket casualty rates could be so low, and how it seems that even medieval weaponry could be more effective. Btw, does anyone know why Zietek was suspended?


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  14. #34
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    If weapon lethality was realistic, this game would be extremely boring.

    Another thing to take into account is that the casualties in the game might also consist of wounded men. Sometimes after a battle a unit has a few more men than the unit had before the battle ended if it took casualties. I'm sure some wounded men played dead if they got shot, particularly if they didn't want to get bayonetted.
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; February 16, 2011 at 02:42 PM.

  15. #35

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    An idea for Marshall Beale for the next release, how about the addition of fire by rank, at least for royalist armies?

    I use Radious's mod for vanilla (it doesn't seem to work with any of my mods, i'm afraid) and it's great imo. Gives a bit of difference to the way the two sides fight.
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  16. #36

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Juggernaut View Post
    An idea for Marshall Beale for the next release, how about the addition of fire by rank, at least for royalist armies?

    I use Radious's mod for vanilla (it doesn't seem to work with any of my mods, i'm afraid) and it's great imo. Gives a bit of difference to the way the two sides fight.
    Historically, every musketry duel degraded sooner or later into an unordered fusillade. Even if conducted by well-trained mercenary troops. I like how the vanilla system works, i think it's the best, because the first volleys are ordered, then the soldiers begin to fire in a more disordered way. I hope it will remain as it is now.

    soult
    "What is difficult in training will become easy in a battle" Alexander V. Suvorov

  17. #37
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Juggernaut View Post
    An idea for Marshall Beale for the next release, how about the addition of fire by rank, at least for royalist armies?

    I use Radious's mod for vanilla (it doesn't seem to work with any of my mods, i'm afraid) and it's great imo. Gives a bit of difference to the way the two sides fight.
    As Soult said, it wasn't realsitic.

    I think it is often confused with double-rank fire, where the first rank crouches and the 2nd rank stand so both ranks can fire simultaneously. No standing up then kneeling. However, I think this was too difficult for CA to program and would take forever to position for an offensive unit trying to get ready to shoot at a unit after moving.

  18. #38

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    The first rank didn't have to crouch for the second to fire - they just did it over their comrade's shoulders - but any more than two ranks firing whilst standing led to point blank friendly fire


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  19. #39
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    Quote Originally Posted by King Musa View Post
    The first rank didn't have to crouch for the second to fire - they just did it over their comrade's shoulders - but any more than two ranks firing whilst standing led to point blank friendly fire
    So what you're telling me is that is done only in the movies?

  20. #40

    Default Re: musket lethality issue...

    During the last part of the XVIII century, superior discipline permitted troops to perform elaborate firing drills such as the three-rank simultaneous fire, using that tactic, all the three ranks forming a line fired simultaneously, with the first rank kneeling and closing back as much as possible against the legs of the men in the second rank, to reduce the blast caused by the firing of the third rank. (actually, muskets were designed long enough to allow that type of firing drill ) When the average training of the troops declined drastically during the napoleonic wars, it was seen that this type of firing drill caused too many friendly fire casualties, since if not performed properly, a lot of men in the first rank would be shot in the shoulders by their comrades in the third. (not to mention tons of irreversibly damaged eardrums!!!) so they switched to the two rank fire ("Feu de deux rangs" in french) where troops were still formed on three ranks, but the first rank didn't kneeled and the third rank wasn't allowed to fire (Gouvion-St-Cyr estimated that one quarter of the losses suffered by the Grande Armee from 1804 to 1815 was caused by friendly fire !!!!!!!!!! in combat is always easier to hurt or kill a friend that an enemy). Austrians developed an even more interesting tactic, they kept their best men in the third rank, and used them to perform skirmish actions when it was needed.
    "What is difficult in training will become easy in a battle" Alexander V. Suvorov

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