Stirrups

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

An idea encountered in older books is that the lack of stirrups prevented the ancient cavalrymen from delivering any form of effective charge and restricted themselves to tentative harassing action.
It is only in recent years that the reconstruction of the Roman saddle, pioneered by Peter Connolly, and its subsequent testing has finally demonstrated that this was simply untrue. It is not known who invented it. When the riders`s weight is lowered onto this type of saddle, the four horns close around and grip his thighs. This provides considerable support, allowing him to throw or thrust a spear and wield a sword effectively, even leaning to one side and recover. (Adrian Goldsworthy)

a) Do you agree with the aforementioned statement? I believe the testing by Peter Connolly efectivelly cleared any doubts about the subject.

b) What is the relevance of the stirrups? I believe it gives further efficiency for the cavalrymen but it is not that important (other factors are more important). Sources?

c) Do you know who invented it? Sources?

Thx

[Anubis88]

An idea encountered in older books is that the lack of stirrups prevented the ancient cavalrymen from delivering any form of effective charge and restricted themselves to tentative harassing action.

Ehm... What? Do you think the Grinpavar could do a devastating charge for example?

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

Ehm... What? Do you think the Grinpavar could do a devastating charge for example?

On the contrary, as i said the idea that the lack of stirrups prevented the ancient cavalarymen from effectively charging is wrong or so Peter connolly and Adriansgolsworthy say.

[bobbin]

An idea encountered in older books is that the lack of stirrups prevented the ancient cavalrymen from delivering any form of effective charge and restricted themselves to tentative harassing action.
It is only in recent years that the reconstruction of the Roman saddle, pioneered by Peter Connolly, and its subsequent testing has finally demonstrated that this was simply untrue. It is not known who invented it. When the riders`s weight is lowered onto this type of saddle, the four horns close around and grip his thighs. This provides considerable support, allowing him to throw or thrust a spear and wield a sword effectively, even leaning to one side and recover. (Adrian Goldsworthy)

a) Do you agree with the aforementioned statement? I believe the testing by Peter Connolly efectivelly cleared any doubts about the subject.

b) What is the relevance of the stirrups? I believe it gives further efficiency for the cavalrymen but it is not that important (other factors are more important). Sources?

c) Do you know who invented it? Sources?

Thx

A) Yes I do, I think most of the team do too.

B) Firstly it makes getting into the saddle a lot easier. The two main benefits I have heard of was that they allowed to rider to stand up in the saddle (very useful when throwing a missile) and improved the riders stability during melee fighting.

C) I've heard it was a Gallic invention, or at least thats how the Romans got hold of it. It also seems the Parthians used it too.

Sorry I have no sources for all that.

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

A) Yes I do, I think most of the team do too.

B) Firstly it makes getting into the saddle a lot easier. The two main benefits I have heard of was that they allowed to rider to stand up in the saddle (very useful when throwing a missile) and improved the riders stability during melee fighting.

C) I've heard it was a Gallic invention, or at least thats how the Romans got hold of it. It also seems the Parthians used it too.

Sorry I have no sources for all that.

Thx

Regarding c) i`ve looked it further i the Parthians, Sarmatians, Gauls used as well (Goldsworthy).

[Aleksander the Average]

will there be different builds of horses to represent different breeds used by different cavalry types of the various kingdoms/empires throughout the ancient world -- larger and smaller ones and such?

i know this wouldn't (and probably shouldn't) be a priority, but perhaps it is in the distant future of EBII?

[Anubis88]

The team has already confirmed that they will work on the horses, once they'll have time to do it. Not in the first releases tough...

[Horatius Flaccus]

Actually, they are already working on new horse models. Just look at this tweet:

Creating new horse models and skins to replace those ugly vanilla ones.~Tux

It was posted in April of 2010.

[bobbin]

Actually, they are already working on new horse models. Just look at this tweet:



It was posted in April of 2010.

Yep, they look really nice too!

[Aleksander the Average]

i guess they'll do the same for elephants... are there camel models already in m2tw?

[Vasterion]

i guess they'll do the same for elephants... are there camel models already in m2tw?

In Vanilla yes. Although Camels, I'm not sure they were actually used in the form of combat that's presented in a M2TW game.

[kyussman]

I'd always been told by my professor Dr Philip Sabin, that the stirrups were a Hunnic invention, yet their usefulness meant that the idea quickly spread to the Romans around 200 BCE. I'll work on getting some sources.

[Populus Romanus]

I'd always been told by my professor Dr Philip Sabin, that the stirrups were a Hunnic invention, yet their usefulness meant that the idea quickly spread to the Romans around 200 BCE. I'll work on getting some sources.

Huns nearby the Romans in 200 BC?

[kyussman]

Not at all. But there are many sources around this time that describe Eastern Barbarians (such as the Goths) being adept and terrifyingly good horsemen. Recent archaeological discoveries have uncovered some of the oldest leather stirrups in the central asian steppes, dating to around 1000BCE. Since this was the natural homeland of the Huns (and many other tribes, before they migrated), it's rational to assume the horsemen of the this area created a stirrup to help keep hold of their vast herds. There's also a marked progression of nations that start using the stirrup for their cavalry, in a clear east to west progression. There is a Royal Parthian burial site that's been found in Mongolia with what appear to be stirrups alongside his equipment. As the Parthian empire was vast (at it's zenith), and the next groups of people to use the stirrups in was were the Sarmatians and the other tribes there (on the eastern borders of their empire), it's logical to assume that its spread was due to its effectiveness in war. The Macedonians were next to use it (imagine Companion cavalry without it), and its from there the Romans are understood to got it.

[Aleksander the Average]

In Vanilla yes. Although Camels, I'm not sure they were actually used in the form of combat that's presented in a M2TW game.

you mean... without guns? yeah.

edit:

Not at all. But there are many sources around this time that describe Eastern Barbarians (such as the Goths) being adept and terrifyingly good horsemen. Recent archaeological discoveries have uncovered some of the oldest leather stirrups in the central asian steppes, dating to around 1000BCE. Since this was the natural homeland of the Huns (and many other tribes, before they migrated), it's rational to assume the horsemen of the this area created a stirrup to help keep hold of their vast herds. There's also a marked progression of nations that start using the stirrup for their cavalry, in a clear east to west progression. There is a Royal Parthian burial site that's been found in Mongolia with what appear to be stirrups alongside his equipment. As the Parthian empire was vast (at it's zenith), and the next groups of people to use the stirrups in was were the Sarmatians and the other tribes there (on the eastern borders of their empire), it's logical to assume that its spread was due to its effectiveness in war. The Macedonians were next to use it (imagine Companion cavalry without it), and its from there the Romans are understood to got it.

do you have a source for this information? it seems a little funny to me...

[Vasterion]

you mean... without guns? yeah.

Don't be pedantic. As in dedicated combat corps set up as an anti-cavalry force. They were used to spook horses, but they were not regular forces, perhaps press ganged forwards should forces be outnumbered and outclassed by enemy cavalry. A horse can generate more force in a kick due to basic physics, and those suited to grazing short steppe grass would have a nastier bite than camels which ate dune grass and low leaves, so for a warhorse, which would have faster despite the increased water consumption and need for higher quality food, along with better temperaments for training, better capabilities in a wide variety of landscapes, a wider more varied genepool for better selective breeding, horses were better.

I'm not saying Dromedarii weren't present, but were they used as combat troops either like Eranshahr/Sassanian Cataphracts, or Roman Auxilia Horse? Doubtful. More likely pushed forwards when lines were ni danger of being overrun.

[skeuophoros]

Don't be pedantic. As in dedicated combat corps set up as an anti-cavalry force. They were used to spook horses, but they were not regular forces, perhaps press ganged forwards should forces be outnumbered and outclassed by enemy cavalry. A horse can generate more force in a kick due to basic physics, and those suited to grazing short steppe grass would have a nastier bite than camels which ate dune grass and low leaves, so for a warhorse, which would have faster despite the increased water consumption and need for higher quality food, along with better temperaments for training, better capabilities in a wide variety of landscapes, a wider more varied genepool for better selective breeding, horses were better.

I'm not saying Dromedarii weren't present, but were they used as combat troops either like Eranshahr/Sassanian Cataphracts, or Roman Auxilia Horse? Doubtful. More likely pushed forwards when lines were ni danger of being overrun.

I guess someone from the EB-team can elucidate the issuse of camles used in battles in EB's timeframe. But I guess for the time being (and anyway) opening up a own thread on this issuse would be better. Hm.. I'll do so just now, as this is of topic.

[bobbin]

Not at all. But there are many sources around this time that describe Eastern Barbarians (such as the Goths) being adept and terrifyingly good horsemen. Recent archaeological discoveries have uncovered some of the oldest leather stirrups in the central asian steppes, dating to around 1000BCE. Since this was the natural homeland of the Huns (and many other tribes, before they migrated), it's rational to assume the horsemen of the this area created a stirrup to help keep hold of their vast herds. There's also a marked progression of nations that start using the stirrup for their cavalry, in a clear east to west progression. There is a Royal Parthian burial site that's been found in Mongolia with what appear to be stirrups alongside his equipment. As the Parthian empire was vast (at it's zenith), and the next groups of people to use the stirrups in was were the Sarmatians and the other tribes there (on the eastern borders of their empire), it's logical to assume that its spread was due to its effectiveness in war. The Macedonians were next to use it (imagine Companion cavalry without it), and its from there the Romans are understood to got it.

You have a very confused time line there, the Huns were a specific group of steppe nomads that appeared near Europe during the 4th century CE. Some identify them with the Xiongnu, who were from modern day Mongolia and clashed with the Han Empire during our period, it is a highly disputed connection though. The theory that the Huns introduced them to Europe is also pretty shaky if not completely false, as there is a 300 year gap between them and any mention of stirrups. It is generally accepted that the Avars were the ones to introduced them.

The Goths were also not around in 200BCE btw.

I have never heard of a Parthian burial site in Mongolia either, their empire was big but it didn't come anywhere near the borders of modern Mongolia, I suspect your confusing them with another steppe tribe.

The Makedonians and their successor empires never used them either.

[skeuophoros]

Not at all. But there are many sources around this time that describe Eastern Barbarians (such as the Goths) being adept and terrifyingly good horsemen. Recent archaeological discoveries have uncovered some of the oldest leather stirrups in the central asian steppes, dating to around 1000BCE. Since this was the natural homeland of the Huns (and many other tribes, before they migrated), it's rational to assume the horsemen of the this area created a stirrup to help keep hold of their vast herds. There's also a marked progression of nations that start using the stirrup for their cavalry, in a clear east to west progression. There is a Royal Parthian burial site that's been found in Mongolia with what appear to be stirrups alongside his equipment. As the Parthian empire was vast (at it's zenith), and the next groups of people to use the stirrups in was were the Sarmatians and the other tribes there (on the eastern borders of their empire), it's logical to assume that its spread was due to its effectiveness in war. The Macedonians were next to use it (imagine Companion cavalry without it), and its from there the Romans are understood to got it.

Astonishing! I always thought that stirrups were unknowen to western cultures (Hellens, Romans, Germanics...) until the the arrival of the Huns. But as I have read here, it seems to be the Avars that introduced them to Europe (as bobbin says - and I guess he knows what he' talking about).

@kyussman & bobbin: Have you any reliable sources on the internet* that can confirm this!?

* sources other than the internet will in most cases be be inaccessible to me

[Ichon]

I thought most of the effectiveness of stirrups derived from first the greater stability to fire missile weapons from horse back where it is much easier to absorb dips in the horses stride or stand up and shoot when the horse is shifting its weight. Some arguments have advanced that stirrups also allowed heavier armored cavalrymen to mount and ride more securely as you can still easily get your mass shifted out of line with the horses movement when only relying on the horns gripping your legs while stirrups give the ability to realign mass quickly with the horses movement which becomes more and more important the heavier the weight of equipment carried by the rider.