[APE: TI Team] New Economic Model

[l33tl4m3r]

Now that we have many of the game-breaking bugs and other issues fixed in v1.1.0 and given the current discussions on the economy, I'd like to hear some ideas from you folks on how to tame the money in the late game!

Let's hear some ideas!

[l33tl4m3r]

1. Revisit taxing effects on happiness. This coupled with resistance will definately make you consider your sliders and make exempting regions very useful.

2. Decrease initial research costs and greatly increase later research costs. This could possibly cause issues with late campaign starts but it can be tested.

3. Since ships do not count against manpower we could greatly increase the upkeep for many of the larger ships.

[ODaly]

How about just a general re-balancing of unhappiness? Scale resistance, taxation, religion, so that they're closer to the proportions found in vanilla. That way it doesn't seem like resistance is the only thing you need to worry about to pacify your population. In addition to requiring more consideration to tax sliders, it'll emphasize religious differences and increase the importance of religious buildings (maybe an adjustment to conversion rates would be necessary). Perhaps a quick look at war weariness and patriotism are due as well. Increasing effects of clamor for reform could cut down on tax rates also, and may even require garrisons to cause further expense.

Another option regarding school costs could be that subsequent schools are more expensive, thus negating the effect of more smaller schools as opposed to fewer bigger ones.

Would adjusting trade resource prices also help out? Decreasing the huge boon of a fleet in Africa, or a subcontinent's worth of plantations could go a long way.

I'll post more ideas as I think of them.

[grandpa]

Does anyone remember (and this may be a date stamp for one ole grandpa lol) how spies used to affect region happiness in shogun, or increase rebellion? Is this possible to do with rakes?

(I could imagine that a brothel makes alot of money through sales of booze, prostitution, gambling and whatnot), but how many people actually live next door to a brothel. So, You may increase your income, but have less people in the region.

When I think of industrialization. I not only think of the expense to build a building, and all machinery it entails, but to upkeep that equipment, would cost more than something less innovative imho. ( thinking of the cost to upkeep an Hoe, versus an mule and plow)
Also, thinking in todays terms, populations would increase in areas where there is manufacturing, versus areas where it is predominately rural farmland.

The farmer may be happier, but there are fewer of them. The factory workers are more plentiful, but less happy to punch a clock.

So, a predominately farmland region (2 or more) would have less population, yet happier (less income), less troops needed to garrison.
predominate industry (2 of any type or more) would have more population, and less happiness, requiring more garrison, hence more cost.

Imho, the biggest impact to late game wealth is due to the 30, or 40 or even 50 increase to region wealth per turn with regard to government palaces and magistrates etc. This could be lowered and have an effect on late game money flush.

I think that would have to be balanced with an increase ( somehow) with trade values of trade theatre goods, along with increase of cost of ships, and their up keep. This will encourage ship building, and trade theatre goals, leading to possibly more battles and strife in the pursuit of getting an edge in the markets.

With some researches, we could increase productivity, but decrease the economic benefit, since most high level researches require some type of real life investment in machinery or tooling, and again more upkeep. However, I think it should increase population since you will have more output, though it would in real life cost you more to get the higher throughput.

( Imagine, increasing income in a farm region, (through research in the planting attributes, or land fertility) but the effect of population increase would be in the industrial region, since the goods are actually being consumed there).

So, to bring this train of thought together, if you had a region with few people, you have to ship, or march troops from one region to another to protect it, and keep it happy, yet its not supplying much in the way of monetary support for these regions troop strength.
If you have a region with alot of wealth, and population, it is disproportionately maintaining the security of lesser regions, that are actually suppling the raw material goods to the population centers.

I'lll stop here for now, to not get all the mumbo jumbo, jumbo mumblin.
Just a lil food for thought of how to implement some of them, and how the big picture may be effected.


Cheers!

[theguruofreason]

Is there a way to make it so that the population tapers off? Is there a way to make population growth dynamically linked to the current population? It would be great if you could have current population diminish population growth so that you have less and less growth as your population goes up (due to crowding). This only makes sense because you only have so much land to farm and house people on. This can also work dynamically with new technology, and would provide a real incentive to research much more agricultural technology to raise population growth as regions get populated. Is it possible to tie happiness to population growth? Having a happier population would encourage growth. The economy could be regulated similarly, though I don't know exactly how the mechanics could work.

Ah yes, happiness. Definitely raise the hit to happiness caused by religious unrest. Perhaps add some other benefits to churches to incentivise their building as well (a bonus to research might be appropriate, or a reduction of the cost of keeping schools). Perhaps even have some base religious unrest that churches counteract (even when a population is 100% state religion). Definitely raise hit to happiness from taxation (you probably were already planning that). Is it possible to raise unrest in regions that border enemy regions? This would also make war more strategic and counteract steamrolling as well.

The economy: I personally like the idea of making trade a bit more important. I think increasing the growth and initial value of trade routes while decreasing region wealth growth from governmental buildings would be a step in the right direction. This way, when you turn on your trade partners in the late game to acquire land, you lose income in doing so and have to rely on the regions you've built up. Perhaps even have negative effects on region wealth generation for bordering an enemy region. Also, mitigating increases in wealth generation as you upgrade buildings, and instead making higher tier buildings have a large contribution to immediate region wealth, as well as decreasing upkeep/recruitment costs, would still give incentive to upgrade these buildings while reducing the growth they provide. Keep the increased initial growth values, but lower lower those of higher tier buildings so that growth isn't exponentially up, but plateaus quickly. This gives more incentive to conquer as well, and incentive to sabotage towns to cut off taxable wealth immediately.

I'm thinking about changes that could be made regarding government and the cabinet, but I haven't gotten anything concrete down and that could be handled later.

[grandpa]

theguruofreason. I like your path of thought. I was looking at the buildings effects, and first of all, there are a ton of buildings, and thier effects lol.
I think the developers would go nuts in its implementation, with unknown overall results.
However, I hear you and think alot of what you are saying would have an objective result of lowering population, that would increase difficulty of manpower and supply, and reduce tax rate income by decreasing population.
I also would think Religous power would play an important part. Think about it, you would get a choice of having a weaver or smith building, that would increase unrest, but increase wealth. Religion would decrease income, but give you more happiness.

I really like the idea of enemy border states having more unrest (it makes sense, Think of Pakistan today).

As I stated before I think Bawdy houses and what not, could increase region wealth, but decrease population. It would all have to be given a value scale, since many regions have many of the various buildings, within the same region.

Personally, thinking of Alpaca's dream of an prestige victory, and since I really like Naval warfare, Imagine having an Monopoly of trade in an theatre ( you are the only one selling Ivory), not through occupation of a trade zone, but by naval presence in the theatre, keeping everyone else out, sticking to the house rule of no more than two trade spots occupied in any given theatre. The National pride would increase population and happiness, yet with increased naval vessel upkeep and cost, it would balance the income of having the monopoly, and give you an prestige bonus per turn. But it would put a maximum overdrive on naval superiority.

With all that said, and having looked at all the various types of buildings, and thier effects, I could understand no one wanting to undertake such an endeavor.

But I like, and appreciate your well said post.

[ODaly]

As I stated before I think Bawdy houses and what not, could increase region wealth, but decrease population.

I don't think they had penicillin back then did they? HEYO!

I really love the logistical growth of regions, as constantly increasing population could be a serious indirect source of player income (though I'm not exactly sure of the mechanics).

Also, it'd probably be a lot of coding, but what about implementing inflation? Over time, depending on, say, tax levels and budget ballooning (or whatever would be most appropriate) inflation would gradually increase. Perhaps instead of constantly readjusting the prices of everything, inflation would just be taken out as a sort of "lost percentage" of income?

[General John]

Now that i am more understanding the mod,i believe that it doesnt need any changes......i mean....if u have more lands and they are wealthy...then u are a wealthy man...u earned it u fought for it so...why to do that??i believe that it doesnt need any big changes but thats just me....

[ODaly]

Now that i am more understanding the mod,i believe that it doesnt need any changes......i mean....if u have more lands and they are wealthy...then u are a wealthy man...u earned it u fought for it so...why to do that??i believe that it doesnt need any big changes but thats just me....

The adjustments that are being considered are mostly for later parts of the game. As it is, after a couple decades, the player has so much money that all of it could not possibly be spent. The idea is that when the player grows their empire, the income will increase, but so will the expenses. Ideally, it'll be balanced so that as you grow, you'll have more financial stability, but never be so rich that you're drowning in cash.

@zxcvmnb: The idea isn't to make more money, but to better balance the income and expense of a growing empire. Having a farm that is three times as abundant than the originals would counteract that idea. Even the increased prices to upgrade would be made up in just a couple turns.

All that said, I can't speak for l33t.

[l33tl4m3r]

The adjustments that are being considered are mostly for later parts of the game. As it is, after a couple decades, the player has so much money that all of it could not possibly be spent. The idea is that when the player grows their empire, the income will increase, but so will the expenses. Ideally, it'll be balanced so that as you grow, you'll have more financial stability, but never be so rich that you're drowning in cash.

@zxcvmnb: The idea isn't to make more money, but to better balance the income and expense of a growing empire. Having a farm that is three times as abundant than the originals would counteract that idea. Even the increased prices to upgrade would be made up in just a couple turns.

All that said, I can't speak for l33t.

You are pretty spot on, though.

Increased upkeep on certain things or increased build costs may be considered to mitigate the late game wash.

We're looking at curtailing the region wealth a bit as well as making taxes more difficult to wring out of the populace.

I like all the ideas, keep them coming!

[zxcvmnb]

Hey all, I have had an idea for the economics of a game like this and it would be as follows:
Instead of having short and relatively cheap improvements, have improvements be long expensive investments with increasingly powerful effects. An example being if in vanilla, farms cost 200 and 2 turns to make, make them cost ~500-1000 and 6 turns. Along the same lines, I suggest that improvements become gradually mor worthwhile whereas a level 3 farm, rather then being 3x as bountiful as a level one farm, is about 9x as bountiful but also 9x as costly.
Also to compensate for changing times, why nor make several types of basic infantry artillery and guard, lets say three, early, mid, and late. The costs of the variations of the units would be risen to be equivalent to the rising economy of the late game player. For this idea, I suggest the units that receive the early mid and late variations are:
* line infantry
* Heavy Cav
*Light Cav
*Foot Guns
*Horse Guns
*Dragoons
*Light Infantry
All others would remain the same throughout the time period.
I believe these two things, unit variations and more expensive and more lengthy improvements would be very beneficial to realism and the playability of this mod.

[ODaly]

@ Gen. John: I would love to have more interaction with populations regarding religion other than "Convert the heathens!" While your suggestion is a very cool idea (if I understand it correctly) I'd be concerned about the coding limitations. If it's even possible, it'd be a large undertaking, with changes to both how your government reacts to different religions, and how your tax sliders work. Again, though, fantastic idea.

@ guru: From what I can tell, the AI is terrible at budgeting (not repairing damaged buildings and such), so I share your concern about the AI digging its units out of the bottom of the barrel, as it were. I wouldn't be surprised if we see increased upkeep on some or many elite and lategame units, however.

[grandpa]

Gen John, they say "great minds think alike".....or sadly "fools never differ", as I think alot along the lines as you in regard to religous effects. I think that religous effects could have a very big difference in late game cash flush. I imagine the more religous buildings you build will result in less industrial buildings, which will also result in less cash flush in the late game, yet have an increase in population for your manpower/supply....which leads us directly to what guru is saying.

Guru, I think you really nailed one there. I can say without question that in my late games, once established, that I have literally came across 20 stacks of polish armies ( all in the province of France), that I had to take on. To put it into perspective, it would have been nice to have a slight increase in my available manpower/supply, in which to fight them more vigorously, and the increase in military unit cost for those extra units would also have had the effect of lowering cash flush, and still have had the fun of taking them on.

Soon we will have to do an recap of all these great ideas flowing here, cuz this is getting exciting. Anything yall come up with throw it out there, lets see if it sticks. no one will redicule your ideas here.

Yes Gen, you are earning your lands and your money, however our goal is not to get you broke, only to keep the competitive / challenging juices flowing from start to end. And I dang sure respect your opinion that no change is necessary, cuz this is one AWESOME Mod!! Thank you all, as I have really enjoyed reading everyones responses.

[rollinnse]

i know that this is a continuing topic that l33tl4m3r is well aware of, but the more i play through campaigns the more dissapointed I am. As I love getting my empire running and the early game (best tbs i've ever played in any form), but then as third tier upgrades start going up and government buildings take control i lose interest as there is no challenge in making money.

I thought that maybe a new thread dedicated to this subject might well-up some new ideas on how to attack this problem.

A few thoughts of mine
-reduction of bonus to wpt from government buildings (maybe even a return to tax income bonuses if this could work with the scripts for resistance or whatnot.
-higher upkeep for all units, not sure about this one especially early game however late game, this would make a huge differance with multiple full stacks in several provinces.
-this one is most obvious: tweak bonuses from improvements (as stated once you reach the third tier money and growth just pours from these)
-increase in difficulty in keeping order with high taxes, i'm usually able to keep vh/vh taxes constantly once i'm about 25 years in with no loyalty problems in home provinces
-also, to compound this problem i still usually am growing my most productive regions in the order of 80-100 even with high taxes on the wealthy.


l33tl4m3r, if this is redundant obviously feel free to delete or merge

thanks for all your work on what could be the best total war experiance, period

[rollinnse]

haha very good, thought there must have been one, didnt search the right name though

[l33tl4m3r]

haha very good, thought there must have been one, didnt search the right name though

No sweat.

I'll be working to compile a list of ideas that look most promising from these suggestions!

[rollinnse]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rollinnse
haha very good, thought there must have been one, didnt search the right name though

No sweat.

I'll be working to compile a list of ideas that look most promising from these suggestions!

very excited to see progress in this area, if someone who plays your mod in excess of 4-6 hours a day could help with testing anything or whatnot let me know

it's all i play anymore and i used to run every total war program including shogun haha

[rollinnse]

and ya, i don't have a job and prefer to limit social interactions to as little as i can get away with haha

medicated student life ftw! lol

[Fedot]

Hi. I like the idea of new economical system, and have a few questions.

smith VS textile - this question arives when u need to choose, what building to build. I made some calculates and it looks like textile is much better, is it?
Is silver mine brings the greatest profit?
Why lumbermills have bonus only to fleet cost and upkeep?

[ODaly]

Smith vs Textiles: I don't believe you get a choice. The town's industry type is scripted and dependent on map location.

Silver Mines: I wouldn't be surprised if silver mines were among the most profitable buildings, but there are other factors (town size, technology, etc) influencing profits.

Lumber Mills: I'd guess the logic is a more efficient lumber mill means it's easier/cheaper for your government to acquire the lumber it needs to build ships, and it reflects this effect in ship prices.