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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    Interesting question on ''The Straight Dope'' which led me to think, ''My dog, there were a crapload of bombs set off by governments, in fact how god damn cavalier were these people with human rights up until...well come to think of it there is guantanamo but thank god for Obama after all he got the nobel peace prize so he is moral right? Errr, we'll get a moral politician one day for sure if it isn't him''


    Dear Cecil:

    I recently saw a TV special with a segment about the German fleet that scuttled itself at Scapa Flow after World War I. They mentioned that metal salvaged from those ships was valuable to instrument makers because it hadn’t been exposed to radiation from the atomic blasts at the end of World War II and later. Why is this metal different from metal recently mined and forged? It doesn't make sense that underwater steel would be more protected from radiation than ore still in the ground. If it isn’t the ore but rather the smelting process that contaminates the finished steel, don't they encounter the same problem when reshaping the metal for use in the instruments? Also, does radiation released in the last 65 years from atomic explosions really have that great an impact?

    — Mike N., Boise


    So Mike, did the bastards who kept you locked up in that basement for the past 65 years really give you no access to information at all? If so, brace yourself for some news: First, a black guy is president. Second, the Cubs still haven’t won a World Series. Third, radiation from atomic explosions is seriously bad.

    In fairness, few today realize how many explosions there were. Prior to the 1963 atmospheric test ban treaty, the atomic powers (the U.S. and the former Soviet Union mostly, but also the UK, China, and France) among them detonated 502 nuclear devices with a total yield equivalent to 440 million tons of TNT at aboveground sites around the world.

    These tests (plus, of course, the two bombs dropped on Japan) threw vast amounts of radioactive crud into the air. The impact on instrument making was the least of the consequences. Global radiation exposure per person peaked in 1963. Scientists at the time estimated that radiation-induced genetic, bone, and bone marrow disease in children born during maximum fallout would be on the order of 5 percent above normal.

    To gauge how bad things were, researchers built “iron rooms,” shielded chambers in which people could be tested to see how much radioactivity they’d absorbed. These rooms had thick steel walls to prevent outside radiation from skewing the results. One iron room, at Argonne National Laboratory, was used to test Marshall Islanders who’d been exposed to fallout following the H-bomb test at Bikini atoll in 1954.

    The challenge in constructing iron rooms was that in those days new steel itself was contaminated, not because of problems with the ore, but because radioactive dust, mainly cobalt-60, got mixed in with the metal when huge quantities of air were blasted into the furnace during smelting. Small batches of uncontaminated steel could be made using special processes involving minimal air exposure, but that was pricey. Steel salvaged from pre-1945 warships was cheap.

    Generally speaking, no reshaping of the metal was necessary. You just cut up the old armor plate into room-sized chunks. For best results you wanted battleship armor, which might be a foot or more thick.

    That brings us to the German High Seas Fleet, interned with German skeleton crews aboard at the British naval base at Scapa Flow, off the Scottish coast, following the armistice of November 1918. Unsure whether hostilities would resume and determined that the fleet not be seized by the Allies, admiral Ludwig von Reuter ordered his men to scuttle their ships on June 21, 1919. Some 50-odd vessels were sunk.

    The shallow waters of Scapa Flow allowed relatively easy access to the wrecks, and many were soon salvaged. A legend has grown up that much of the “low-background steel” from these ships was used in iron-room-type shielding applications, and in particular that NASA used some in the Voyager spacecraft. However, that’s probably exaggerated — most of the ships were salvaged in the 1920s and ’30s. I did find a 1973 news account saying steel from the battleship Kronprinz Wilhelm was going to be used to shield a medical diagnostic system at a Scottish hospital, and that other pieces of the ship had been sent to Cape Town and Koblenz. However, NASA has said it can’t confirm steel from the German fleet was launched into space.

    Fact is, plenty of old steel was available from decommissioned American warships. For example, 65 tons of armor plate from the battleship Indiana, scrapped in 1962, was used for shielding at an Illinois VA hospital, and another 210 tons went into building a shielded room at a Utah medical center.

    Maybe you're thinking: at last, a use for that pocket battleship I inherited from Mom. Sorry, the market for old steel is now pretty much sunk. Reduced radioactive dust plus sophisticated instrumentation that corrects for background radiation means new steel can now be used in most cases. There's some lingering demand for really old maritime metal, though. When researchers at one national lab wanted shielding that emitted no radiation whatsoever, they used lead ballast retrieved from the Spanish galleon San Ignacio, which had been lying on the bottom of the Caribbean for 450 years.

    — Cecil Adams

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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    With all do respect -- What is there to discuss here? I read it. I even have read it more than once. I am still at a loss for words.
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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    With all do respect -- What is there to discuss here? I read it. I even have read it more than once. I am still at a loss for words.
    Yeah I don't get it...
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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking Prince View Post
    With all do respect -- What is there to discuss here? I read it. I even have read it more than once. I am still at a loss for words.
    . Prior to the 1963 atmospheric test ban treaty, the atomic powers (the U.S. and the former Soviet Union mostly, but also the UK, China, and France) among them detonated 502 nuclear devices with a total yield equivalent to 440 million tons of TNT at aboveground sites around the world.

    Well this was an interesting fact that I felt worth noting and discussing, and the fact that they experimented on humans to test how dangerous it was. Furthermore it shows how reckless governments were with nuclear weapons despite knowledge of its effects. The sheer immorality of governments despite their 'holy war' against the nazis, and the idea that perhaps their is absolutely no reason to trust them at all (for which I would create a defence of wikileaks I might add) and that perhaps they are just slightly better at hiding what they do now within the age of global media.

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    Last edited by Denny Crane!; January 08, 2011 at 09:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    . Prior to the 1963 atmospheric test ban treaty, the atomic powers (the U.S. and the former Soviet Union mostly, but also the UK, China, and France) among them detonated 502 nuclear devices with a total yield equivalent to 440 million tons of TNT at aboveground sites around the world.

    Well this was an interesting fact that I felt worth noting and discussing, and the fact that they experimented on humans to test how dangerous it was. Furthermore it shows how reckless governments were with nuclear weapons despite knowledge of its effects. The sheer immorality of governments despite their 'holy war' against the nazis, and the idea that perhaps their is absolutely no reason to trust them at all (for which I would create a defence of wikileaks I might add) and that perhaps they are just slightly better at hiding what they do now within the age of global media.

    Were these facts surprising to you? It's well known that we've tested hundreds and thousands of nuclear weapons over the years and that we've used the tests to see the effect on humans. The same went for chemical and biological weapons. Such known facts, in my opinion, do not justify for rogue information brokers, if that's the right term, like Wikileaks. I don't know why you think governments are better at hiding information these days. I believe the complete opposite.

    I'm not justifying all of the nuclear tests, Hell, my grandad died from cancer because he helped work on the A-bomb in WWII, but I don't see how you go from facts about nuclear tests to not trusting governments at all.

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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    I think the gist is how carefree people in power handled very dangerous stuff?

    A play on 'power corrupts' even more subtle than you might realise?
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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    Is a government immoral for acting when the risks are not known? Probably not. I remember reading about a movie shoot that was down wind from a test. The results were quite bad, but we simply did not know what we do today. That is why the test ban treaty went into effect. We learn as more information comes forward. That does not make the prior acts immoral.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    Yeah I was pretty surprised, I knew nuclear tests had happened but I had no idea how much.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    Having been brought up during the cold war and all the others that weren't cold but active I can sit here and say quite comfortably that if we hadn't done it to someone else that someone else may well have done it to us, thus meaning that we couldn't talk about whether it was moral or not.

    It remains the first duty of a government to protect its own people by every means at its disposal. We used the bomb in a calculation that it would save lives, our men's lives, at the expense of the enemy and it worked and is still working because any potential enemy knows the consequences of any irrational action they may take.

    To many it is immoral, but what they fail to see is that they can feel these things whilst under the umbrella of that which they don't like. Of course it has its dangers yet are these dangers not worth risking if only to keep the world in the knowledge that the alternative could be much worse if we didn't have them at all? By that I mean just look around and see the hardcases all over the world who want their piece of the cake.

    Under this morality that many hold we now find the world held to ransome by rogue states like North Korea, all the way down to Somali pirates, not withstanding that Pakistan is becoming the most dangerous place on the planet, nor forgetting dear old Iran should its ambitions bear fruit. Yes this same morality sits in the UN whilst millions die where the bomb has absolutely got nothing to do with it.

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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    Bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima was purely logical.

    The Japaneese were brave and would not give up easily.

    Many more would have died, including Americans, if the war continued.

    The American government did their duty. They protected their loyal citizens, both home and abroad, civilian and in arms, by destroying the enemy's will with nuclear fire.

    And it worked.


    Targeting civilians may be immorral. Genocide of two cities is pretty horrid. But it worked miracelously well, and it saved more lives than it wasted.


    I may blame the US for many weaknesses, many flaws, but the judgement of Japan are not among them.
    Last edited by SinerAthin; January 09, 2011 at 07:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    Quote Originally Posted by SinerAthin View Post
    Genocide of two cities is pretty horrid. But it worked miracelously well, and it saved more lives than it wasted.

    it wasn't genocide. It was large casualties, and a horrific yet necessary action, but not genocide.



    The later tests are far more arguable. (in terms of necessity, but as stated earlier, for quite a while, the dangers of fallout where not fully understood)

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    " The later tests are far more arguable. (in terms of necessity, but as stated earlier, for quite a while, the dangers of fallout where not fully understood) "

    justicar5,

    Maybe I am far out here but I remember reading or watching something about the effects of Chernobal and the concensus seemed to be that there were little effects to the Russians living in and around the place. Indeed if memory serves me correct the scientists were more or less saying that an increase in radiation to our systems was quite harmless.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    Quote Originally Posted by SinerAthin View Post
    Bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima was purely logical.

    The Japaneese were brave and would not give up easily.

    Many more would have died, including Americans, if the war continued.

    The American government did their duty. They protected their loyal citizens, both home and abroad, civilian and in arms, by destroying the enemy's will with nuclear fire.

    And it worked.


    Targeting civilians may be immorral. Genocide of two cities is pretty horrid. But it worked miracelously well, and it saved more lives than it wasted.


    I may blame the US for many weaknesses, many flaws, but the judgement of Japan are not among them.
    This wasn't about Japan. Did you read the thread? It was about the testing of the bombs.

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    it wasn't genocide. It was large casualties, and a horrific yet necessary action, but not genocide.



    The later tests are far more arguable. (in terms of necessity, but as stated earlier, for quite a while, the dangers of fallout where not fully understood)
    ..any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;
    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
    – Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II



    Pretty hard to define, so glad you are so certain

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    " The later tests are far more arguable. (in terms of necessity, but as stated earlier, for quite a while, the dangers of fallout where not fully understood) "

    justicar5,

    Maybe I am far out here but I remember reading or watching something about the effects of Chernobal and the concensus seemed to be that there were little effects to the Russians living in and around the place. Indeed if memory serves me correct the scientists were more or less saying that an increase in radiation to our systems was quite harmless.
    I've seen data somewhere I'm sure that says different I must say. The effects of the radiation clouds...I'll have a look at it.

    justicar:
    As for the dangers of the testing not being understood I disagree with that, they understood how bad it could be which is why they were testing humans so well.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    ..any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    (a) Killing members of the group;
    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
    – Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II



    Pretty hard to define, so glad you are so certain



    .
    It wasn't genocide, it was however the bloodiest war in human history. The reason I am sure it was not a genocide is the way the Americans acted in victory, both before final victory, (e,g with Japanese civilians in liberated/conquered territories). If the americans had wanted a genocide in post war Japan they could have easily done it, not accepting the surrender and continuing the bombings would have been a good start for instance.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Amazing what fear, greed and powerlust can persuade governments to do..

    OP

    Scientists at the time estimated that radiation-induced genetic, bone, and bone marrow disease in children born during maximum fallout would be on the order of 5 percent above normal.
    Likely a bit alarmist...

    Compare this from the EPA

    http://www.epa.gov/radiation/docs/federal/frc_rpt3.pdf

    I mean once you start talking about estimations it really useful to know who is doing the estimate when, why on on what data for whom... I suspect the averse health impact of the vast use of medical X rays (or quasi medical treatments) without much shielding in the first part of this century was likely far worse.
    Last edited by conon394; January 13, 2011 at 10:34 AM.
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