Fascism and Nationalism

[cardnals100]

So recently I've been thinking about Fascism's connections to nationalism. They seem like 2 'ideologies' that could coexist or make for a frightening combination. Could the 2 maybe be mutually exclusive? Or is it that the 2 are simply grouped together accidentally?

At the same time I was also thinking of patriotism(in the U.S generally) which I've always thought as being another word for nationalism or a dumbed down version of it at least. So my second question would be that could patriotism be a way for fascism to creep into American politics?

[Jaketh]

i hope so

[Doyle141]

i hope so

You a Fascist, brah?

[Armenum]

Well yes and no. Nationalism is a slippery slope, to much of it can lead easily to Fascism. But nationalism in healthy amounts can be very beneficial for a people and a country as a whole. One important factor of such nationalism is the ability to bring people together especially during difficult times for that nation - and thus work together with one common goal - improving and strengthening the country. And again I will stress when nationalism gets out of control and out of proportion Fascism and bigotry can very easily come into play.

[Mr. Scott]

Considering the high percentage of non-whites in the US and the fairly un-racist values of Americans, I doubt it.
Also, big government isn't liked in the US comparatively, so getting public approval for one would be incredibly difficult.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Considering the high percentage of non-whites in the US and the fairly un-racist values of Americans, I doubt it.

I don't see how that's a barrier to fascism.

[cardnals100]

Considering the high percentage of non-whites in the US and the fairly un-racist values of Americans, I doubt it.
Also, big government isn't liked in the US comparatively, so getting public approval for one would be incredibly difficult.

Couldn't the guise of small government be used in this case? In which the government would be claiming to be reducing government control but they'd actually be increasing it behind the scenes exponentially?

There could also be the idea that the American people are the best in the world rather then one race.

[Jaketh]

Considering the high percentage of non-whites in the US and the fairly un-racist values of Americans, I doubt it

Facscism and racism dont go hand in hand

[43rdFoot]

Patriotism is pride in a country. Nationalism is pride in a nation. There is a difference.


Nationalism is an intrinsic part of Fascism. It was a logical outcome of nationalistic tendencies of the 19th century.

[cardnals100]

So Fascism needs nationalism to be 'successful'(if fascism can be at all)?

[CiviC]

Nationalism is an intrinsic part of Fascism. It was a logical outcome of nationalistic tendencies of the 19th century.

No, it wasn't.
Maybe would you like to explain that "logic".
Fascism is a totalitarian ideology. Romantic nationalism (the originary nationalism) was a very democratic ideology, it meant first that the people, constituted in a nation, is sovereign (not the absolute monarch); second it meant the nation has the right to self determination (independence and sovereignity) instead of being subject of an empire or a foreign nation.

Fascism, as well as Communism, and other forms of demagogical ideologies used and hijacked nationalism for their propaganda. If a dictator would say that his regime is "the true democracy" would that mean dictatorship is the "logical" outcome of democracy?

[43rdFoot]

No, it wasn't.
Maybe would you like to explain that "logic".
Fascism is a totalitarian ideology. Romantic nationalism (the originary nationalism) was a very democratic ideology, it meant first that the people, constituted in a nation, is sovereign (not the absolute monarch); second it meant the nation has the right to self determination (independence and sovereignity) instead of being subject of an empire or a foreign nation.

Fascism, as well as Communism, and other forms of demagogical ideologies used and hijacked nationalism for their propaganda. If a dictator would say that his regime is "the true democracy" would that mean dictatorship is the "logical" outcome of democracy?

Why do you want to think fascism "hijacked" nationalism? It didn't and that is absolute hogwash. Fascism is simply a combination of militarism and nationalism. Fascists of the 1920s-40s genuinely believed in the superiority of their "nation", and genuinely believed in what they were doing. Nationalism wasn't just used an excuse or a justification by back-room plotters in their propaganda.

[CiviC]

Why do you want to think fascism "hijacked" nationalism? It didn't and that is absolute hogwash. Fascism is simply a combination of militarism and nationalism. Fascists of the 1920s-40s genuinely believed in the superiority of their "nation", and genuinely believed in what they were doing. Nationalism wasn't just used an excuse or a justification by back-room plotters in their propaganda.

Fascism is an ideology that took the idea of nation and created their vision of how a nation should be. Nationalism has many flavours, it can be democratic and liberal, it can be fascist, it can be communist (Romania had one of the most nationalistic Communism).

Italy was unified under a liberal romantic nationalism. Fascism was only a ideology that profited of national sentiment to achieve an authoritarian/totalitarian corporatist state with imperialistic goals.

My point is fascism isn't the obligatory evolution of nationalism and in fact contradicts the idea of nation, because the nation has to be free and self determined, any totalitarian regime takes the sovereignity from the nation.

[43rdFoot]

Fascism is an ideology that took the idea of nation and created their vision of how a nation should be. Nationalism has many flavours, it can be democratic and liberal, it can be fascist, it can be communist (Romania had one of the most nationalistic Communism).

Italy was unified under a liberal romantic nationalism. Fascism was only a ideology that profited of national sentiment to achieve an authoritarian/totalitarian corporatist state with imperialistic goals.

My point is fascism isn't the obligatory evolution of nationalism and in fact contradicts the idea of nation, because the nation has to be free and self determined, any totalitarian regime takes the sovereignity from the nation.

I never said it was. I said fascism was a logical outcome of the nationalism of the 19th century. Not that it was the logical outcome.

[Atatürk]

Patriotism is pride in a country. Nationalism is pride in a nation. There is a difference.

What is the difference?

[Matthias]

What is the difference?

A nation-state is generally thought of as a country formed of people overwhelmingly of the same ethnicity and historical background. So a nation-state is basically a country made up mostly of one "people" or ethnicity. A country itself is just the political state. The US wouldn't be considered a "nation-state" because of this.

[CiviC]

What is the difference?

The country/state isn't the same as the nation. Romania is for example the homeland of Romanian nation and because this is called a nation-state, but Romanian nation is only 89% of Romania's citizens and not all Romanian nation lives inside Romania's borders or even have Romanian citizenship. Beside Romanian nation in Romania live other nations, the second largest being Hungarians. Romania as a state respects the right to existence of all nations and people aren't forcibly considered part of Romanian nation just because they have Romanian citizenship. For us nationality and citizenship are two distinct notions.

The notion of nation in Romania is semi-informal, it has only vaguely a political significance, being more a cultural-linguistic-historical notion. All citizens are equal regardless nationality/religion/etc., minority nations have special cultural rights; we don't have our nationality registred on ID's or any official papers, it's a matter of self-identification; so in Romania nation is mainly related to the ethnic identity of the people. Romanian state is the homeland of Romanian nation because it's the political expression of our historical evolution and ethnic-cultural-linguistic identity. Only an independent state can promote and protect our identity, culture, language, interests. But as a modern democratic state we protect the rights of minorities; it's a matter of balance between the rights of a majority and those of a minority.

In conclusion nation=/=state, at least in the case of Romania.

So nationalism is the love for your nation, and patriotism for your country, in the case of Romania not only Romanians can love their country, but also Hungarians, Germans, Bulgarians living in Romania, etc. There can be also local patriotism, a Hungarian of Romania could not be very fond of Romania, neither of Hungary, but of Transylvania as a region.

[vlach]

to summarise

Patriotism is fondness of the place where one is born
Nationalism is fondness of whom one is born in terms of ethnicity

[Valkar]

There is a certain link between those two, but it isn't real regular. Its more a thing for National Socialism

[Col. Tartleton]

IMO

Patriotism is liking the country you live in.
Nationalism is thinking the country you live in is better than everyone else.
Jingoism is trash talking how much better your country is than everyone else.
Imperialism is doing everyone the favor of becoming part of your country.
Fascism is doing everyone the favor of being dead so they don't have to not be part of your country.

America tends to fluctuate between what I call Jingoistic and Nationalistic.