Heaven, Hell, AND Purgatory?...Wait...What?

[Matterhorn]

I am baptized Protestant but I want to become a Catholic. However I read a few things that everything about Catholicism is just blasphemy and fake. They said that Purgatory doesn't even make sense. (And I don't think it's in the bible). There were many other things that attacked Catholicism and I want to know if they are right or not. If you are a Catholic I would like to hear from you.

Here's the website: http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/index.htm#rc

[Biggreenfellow]

I don't think Protestants are a good source of information when it concerns Catholics, or vice versa, for that manner. From what I understand, there is still a great deal of rivalry between the two. I'm not a religious man, but if you seek answers regarding a religion, you should go to a priest and ask him all your questions. If he's half decent, he'll make the time to answer them for you (my great-uncle (the uncle of my mother is a great-uncle, right?) was a priest, and he enjoyed talking about his religion to genuinely interested people).

EDIT:
Skimmed through the link you provided, and had a good laugh. I wouldn't believe anything those people write, it's obviously just ProtestantvsCatholic propagandistic raging. Catholic Mary is the Devil? Catholics are eating Jezus? Really? LOL I'm sure you can find a similar site where Catholics are dishing out insults and accuse Protestants with sleeping with animals and whatnot if you'd want to.

EDITEDIT:
Took me one minute or so:
http://latincatholic.tripod.com/id4.html

[Juvenal]

Well, I must say that that website is long on spleen and short on unbiased information.

Why don't you consult Roman Catholic sites for information about the faith, such as the Catholic Truth Society?

Even Wikipedia is going to give better results than the site you've quoted.

[mrcrusty]

I am baptized Protestant but I want to become a Catholic. However I read a few things that everything about Catholicism is just blasphemy and fake. They said that Purgatory doesn't even make sense. (And I don't think it's in the bible). There were many other things that attacked Catholicism and I want to know if they are right or not. If you are a Catholic I would like to hear from you.

Here's the website: http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/index.htm#rc

Rabid anti-Catholic website is anti-Catholic.

It would be like going to the KKK or the Black Panthers to learn about African American history. Don't expect arguments and explanations to be remotely truthful.

But I'm a little bored and have some time to kill, so as a Catholic, let me try and explain some of the concepts that the site takes issue with. I won't necessarily get dragged into their arguments, because they are fundamentally wrong to begin with. Oversimplified, exaggerated and taken out of context for the purposes of painting all Catholics as a bunch of blasphemous, idol worshipping cannibals.

I would recommend to you the website www.newadvent.org if you wish to learn more about Catholicism. It is a Catholic site, so of course it does view things from a Catholic perspective, but it does have an online version of the Catholic Encyclopedia, which is a treasure trove of knowledge if you wish to learn about Catholic theology.

Now, to the site and it's issues with the Church.

I haven't done any EMM posting in a long time, and I'm feeling rather lazy, so forgive the use of wiki as my main source.

The Catholic Mass

One of the issues that offends the site is that surrounding Catholic Mass, specifically, the Eucharist.

The site trots out a couple of articles decrying the evil and blasphemy of Catholic cannibals eating the body and blood of Christ, singling us out but the Eucharist is far from a Catholic-specific tradition.

The Eucharist, also called Holy Communion, Sacrament of the Altar, the Blessed Sacrament, or The Lord's Supper, and other names, is a Christian sacrament or ordinance, generally considered to be a re-enactment of the Last Supper, the final meal that Jesus Christ shared with his disciples before his arrest and crucifixion, during which he gave them bread, saying, "This is my body", and wine, saying, "This is my blood".[1][2]
There are different interpretations of the significance of the Eucharist, but "there is more of a consensus among Christians about the meaning of the Eucharist than would appear from the confessional debates over the sacramental presence, the effects of the Eucharist, and the proper auspices under which it may be celebrated."[1]
The phrase "the Eucharist" may refer not only to the rite but also to the consecrated bread (leavened or unleavened) and wine or, (in some Protestant denominations), unfermented grape juice or (in Mormonism) water, used in the rite,[3] and, in this sense, communicants may speak of "receiving the Eucharist", as well as "celebrating the Eucharist".

The Eucharist is a commonly accepted practice in all major denominations of Christianity including Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestant Anglicanism and among Lutherans.

Now, in particular, what the site finds offensive about the Eucharist is the concept that the bread and wine meant to represent Jesus are not symbolic, but real. This is known as Transubstantiation.

The substance (fundamental reality) of the bread and wine is transformed in a way beyond human comprehension into that of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, but the accidents (physical traits, including chemical properties) of the bread and wine remain. This view is taught by the Roman Catholic Church, and is held by many Anglicans especially in Anglo-Catholic circles.
Though the terminology of Trasubstantiation was used by the Orthodox Church's Synod of Jerusalem (1672), this synod is not recognized by Eastern Orthodox believers as having the universal authority of an Ecumenical Council. Orthodox generally prefer not to be tied down by the specifics of the Latin doctrine of Transubstantiation—though agreeing with definition's conclusion of the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Orthodox prefer simply to use the term "change" (Greek: metaballo, the term used in the Epiklesis of the Divine Liturgy) to describe the transformation of the bread and wine into the actual Body and Blood of Christ.[2] (See "Objective reality, silence about technicalities", below.)
The Assyrian Church of the East and the Oriental Orthodox Church also believe in Real Presence, but do not explicitly use the word "transubstantiation".

Virgin Mary

One of the major issues that the site takes offense from is the Virgin Mary. Indeed, the Catholic view of the Virgin Mary is mostly unique to the Catholic Church.

Now, the title for the Virgin Mary "Queen of Heaven" is used by the site to present the image that Catholics view Mary as equal to God, or actually God Himself (or herself as they would have you believe).

Queen of Heaven is a title given to the Blessed Virgin Mary by Christians, mainly of the Roman Catholic Church, and also, to some extent, in the Anglican, Lutheran, and Eastern Orthodox churches, to whom the title is a (disputed) consequence of the Council of Ephesus in the fifth century, where the Virgin Mary was proclaimed "theotokos" ("God-bearer," "birthgiver of God" or the "one who gives birth to God" among other translations), a title rendered in Latin as Mater Dei, "Mother of God".
The Catholic teaching on this subject is expressed in the papal encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam,[1] issued by Pope Pius XII. It states Mary is called the Queen of Heaven because her Son, Jesus Christ, is the King of Israel and heavenly King of the Universe. In the Hebrew tradition, the mother of the king is the queen (see queen mother). Catholic dogma (Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus) states that the Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.[2] The title Queen of Heaven has long been a Catholic tradition, included in prayers and devotional literature, and seen in Western art in the subject of the Coronation of the Virgin, from the High Middle Ages, long before it was given a formal dogmatic definition status by the Church. For centuries, Catholics, while reciting the Litany of Loreto were already invoking Mary as "Queen of Heaven".

The site uses a passage from the Old Testament (Jeremiah 7:18) to actually declare "the Queen of Heaven" (that being the Virgin Mary) a demon.

I don't know whether they want to paint Catholics as devil worshippers or are actually claiming that the Virgin Mary is a demon, but either way, it's laughable.

What the site fails to address is that the passage was in reference to a title held by Asheroth, wife of pagan god Ba'al. It has nothing to do with the Virgin Mary.

I uhh... what?

I was hoping to have more theological differences put out by the site so I could help explain them better, but it looks like the rest is just mudslinging, insults and attacks that have nothing to do with theology.

At first, the site claims that Catholics are blasphemous, devil worshipping cannibals, but it ends up finishing with "Catholics are blasphemous, devil worshipping, cannibalistic pedophiles".

Bravo OP, I haven't seen such a junk filled site in quite a while. I'm sure there's Catholic equivalents, but what you have there on that site is absolutely terrible.

It's much like trying to learn about the Holocaust from Neo-Nazis. Can't believe I wasted my time on a serious response for that garbage.

[The Dude]

Why would you want to join an organisation that's trying to hide away massive amounts of sexual child abuse?

Honest question. It's just beyond me.

[Matterhorn]

Why would you want to join an organisation that's trying to hide away massive amounts of sexual child abuse?

Honest question. It's just beyond me.

Well first off, it's a misconception. Not all Catholic priests are just walking around touching little boys. There have been a few cases, and the Church's reaction to it has been less-than admirable. (Like you said, they tried to cover it up) That's the main issue I have with the Catholic Church. Their manpower. Throughout history the Church has been very corrupt. But you can't judge the religion by the acts of a small percentage of them. Another example would be that not all Muslims are terrorists because a few think that way.

[The Dude]

Well first off, it's a misconception. Not all Catholic priests are just walking around touching little boys. There have been a few cases, and the Church's reaction to it has been less-than admirable. (Like you said, they tried to cover it up) That's the main issue I have with the Catholic Church. Their manpower. Throughout history the Church has been very corrupt. But you can't judge the religion by the acts of a small percentage of them. Another example would be that not all Muslims are terrorists because a few think that way.

I think you should just accept organised religion, or at least catholicism, for what it is: a system prone to corruption and failure. Why not believe in god on your own accord? Being part of a religious establishment isn't going to make your theism any more real or valid.

[Invictus XII]

I think you should just accept organised religion, or at least catholicism, for what it is: a system prone to corruption and failure. Why not believe in god on your own accord? Being part of a religious establishment isn't going to make your theism any more real or valid.

Because Christ states in the Bible there can only be one true faith, thats why you can't make up your own Christian religion. It doesn't work that way.

Let me answer the OP's post. Some common misunderstandings about the church.

-The Pope is not God, and isn't supernatural, he is a normal human being, able to be corrupt or make mistakes like any other human being, influenced by the temptations of man. He is just the representative of St Peter, the original head of the Church.

-Some may say we are un-Christian, and we don't spread the word of God as Jesus did. And we just sit at mass for an hour. But it works like this, the priest spreads Gods message to us, and we spread it in our everyday lives, we don't go door knocking, but spread the message of God by example, which is the best way to spread the truth.

-The church isn't the Vatican and the Holy See, the church is the congregation, you see weekly at mass. Most anti-Catholics see the church all to do with our history and the Papal States, but they are just the head of the church, doesn't mean the are the church. Its probably the most misconceived views on Catholicism.

-The Nicean Creed, what we believe as a church, and this includes everything the church stands for and what the church is:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[Turbo]

Why would you want to join an organisation that's trying to hide away massive amounts of sexual child abuse?

Honest question. It's just beyond me.

The church itself as an organisation is holy but the people are not. Every faith has its successes and its failures with the people who represent themselves as true followers. The creed and the beliefs of the church are holy but the people certainly aren't. These child abusers broke the law of the church.

The people within the church who cover up the sins are possibly more at fault than those who commit the sinful acts. Evil only triumphs when good men do nothing. I hate to say this but often those who profess the faith the loudest are often those who believe the least.

[The Dude]

The church itself as an organisation is holy but the people are not.

What is the church if not its adherents? The church as a building is just a pile of bricks, the church as institution exists only on paper, written by men about men. No people, no institution. The church can be holy only if its people are.

Every faith has its successes and its failures with the people who represent themselves as true followers. The creed and the beliefs of the church are holy but the people certainly aren't. These child abusers broke the law of the church.

They broke the law of the church, and those who worked to uphold the law then instead did not. That's the problem. The law is holy? How is that supposed to convince me if it didn't even convince the collective council of cardinals or whatever the legislative body of the catholic church is called? It seems to me that a truly holy thing would have a natural compelling force that brings men to do as asked or ordered, and none of that was the case with at least cardinal Ratzinger, nor the many bishops and priests who were helped along by his coverups.

The people within the church who cover up the sins are possibly more at fault than those who commit the sinful acts. Evil only triumphs when good men do nothing. I hate to say this but often those who profess the faith the loudest are often those who believe the least.

Well here we are in absolute agreement. I've often said that for a person to be the Pope he either has to be a liar or clinically insane. There's no other way of acting the part of the link between god and man. Either you genuinely believe you are, which makes you nuts, or you believe none of it, which makes you dishonest.

[Matterhorn]

Can't believe I wasted my time on a serious response for that garbage.

Well it may have been garbage, but it did help me out a lot. Thanks.

[Squiggle]

The pope historically has been one of the most corrupt and brutal forces in European politics, and hes suppose to be the speaker for a loving God on Earth...

[black-dragon]

http://www.priestsrapeboys.com/

Very enlightening stuff. Are you sure to want to associate with those people?

[Col. Tartleton]

I'm an atheist and I'm offended by this. I might not be a practicing catholic but part of me still identifies with it. Sure it's a bunch of arcane rituals and magic in a mystical language. That's what religion is and no one does religion better than the church. Transubstantiation is IMO an example of people taking a metaphor too seriously and turning the sacredness of a shared meal by a community into taking Christ into you spiritually.

Mary as queen of heaven is totally reasonable. She was if you believe the myths immaculate and she bore God in her son. If that doesn't make her a Demi god or hero or something, what does?

Finally even if all priests were pedophiles (they aren't) that says nothing about the religion. The way I see it is that the idea of forgiveness means the church shouldn't persecute them for their bad behavior as long as they seriously try to stop and understand what they did was wrong. What do you want the Spanish inquisition? That's ironic seeing as that's the probably the main complaint against them...

I think people are welcome to whatever religious practices they believe/like. That's part of the America I want to live in. I don't need to believe in god to be fascinated by religion. Even the pope knows that condoms are best left to gay hookers. God fearin decent folk know that coitus interruptus works better or if you want to be a vestal virgin ye can abstaineth...

If you're going to invest time and energy in the god who probably isn't there or was just the hard working hard drinking stepson of a carpenter, at least be a genuine draft catholic. Of all the cults and sects in the world at least choose the one with a long and colorful history of ironic hypocrisy.

[pericles_plato]

Don't listen to protestant about different sects of Christianity. My old Pastor didn't like Catholics, Orthodox, or Jews. Southern Baptists/Methodists, might seam nice but some of them can be pricks. You got nice protestans then you got mean protestants. I hang out with a lot of protestants.
Have you read up of Eastern Orthodox or any other sect? Before you decide you really want to be part of a different sect of Christianity you should look at the others and follow whereever your heart leads you to. Your heart will guide you to what is right, if it is filled with the Holy Spirit.

[basics]

" I am baptized Protestant but I want to become a Catholic. "

Matterhorn,

If you are capable of crossing from one belief to another and vice versa because it is what you want what does that tell you about your position as it stands? Don't get me wrong because people do change religions or leave what they were. The deeper question that I have about what your want is, is on what basis you want to do this?

Quite clearly you have not been born again. You, like me, have been born into a Protestant family where as a child with no knowledge you were pronounced Christian by immersion in water or sprinkling with water. All that can do is make you religious and it applies whether you happen to be Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Protestant.

A born again believer, that is a regenerate soul, must be aware of his or her life being changed and why it has been changed. Water does not do that and cannot do that. Jesus Christ said that a man must be born again if he is to enter heaven. He also says that none can come to the Father except through Him and none can come to Him except the Father draws him or her. So becoming a Roman Catholic will leave you in exactly the same situation, why?

Because quite clearly God will be the one who makes you a Christian by faith for no-one else can. Therefore my advice to you is to pour yourself over the Scriptures and patiently wait on God. Why the Scriptures you might ask? Because they say of themselves that they are the power of God unto salvation. Aye the power of God that no denomination can lay claim to for it is God that justifies, that saves any soul seeking Him.

Just a wee clue for you to ponder is that Jesus also said to the disciples that His followers should call no man Father except His Father in heaven. So why would the born again call mere men fathers if they really were regenerate? The Christian has only one Father just as it is also written that there is only one Faith, one Lord and one Spirit of God. One doesn't need to be persuaded by anything outside of Scripture to know what God thinks, that's why you should stick to it.

All that said I want to reiterate that Roman Catholics on the whole are sincere in their believing what they are taught to believe, just as are the Orthodox and many Protestant factions. The problems begin when the additives become more important than the message and the message is the Scriptures, nothing else. So test what you see against what is written and let that be your judge.

[Col. Tartleton]

Born again like Moses when he ascended the Mountain of Fire and spoke to the Ba'al of Zephon and then smashed the stone templates of the covenant and proclaimed the Apis Bull the idol of their Enemies and destroyed the idol in a fury and orders his chosen to set about killing the blasphemers to whom he returned and remade the covenant, only to returned in the image of Amun Ra himself with the horns of a mighty ram and his face bright like the sun itself, from which day, he had to shroud himself to protect the Hebrews from his searing radiance?

That kind of rebirth?

[(s)AINT]

Why would you want to BE in an organized religion? What is the attraction? Do you think it is cool? Do you think you'll feel morally superior when someone asks you what religion do you practice? Do you think it like an online clan where you can do stuff that other people can't and wear the tag so you can EGO trip?

[Captain Jack]

Catholics? Orthodox? Protestants? Why the hell do you need 3 different groups if they worship THE SAME GOD? I'm a regular christian, as in i don't give a damn what the Pope says.

Btw for any of you that don't know what Heaven, Hell or Purgatory means I'll explain.

Heaven(Kingdom Of Heaven) is the place where good people and God live.
Hell is the place were bad people and Satan live
Purgatory is like a "Treatment facility". People go there to get rid of they're sins there. Once they are "clean" they can go to Heaven but if they aren't they go to Hell

[Squiggle]

Catholics? Orthodox? Protestants? Why the hell do you need 3 different groups if they worship THE SAME GOD? I'm a regular christian, as in i don't give a damn what the Pope says.

That makes you a Protestant...

Look up the history of Christianity, the divisions in denominations makes perfect sense, and is extremely pertinent to the average believer.

I do not see any difficulty with purgatory. If the bodies and souls of the elect raised on the last day are glorified, it stands to reason there must be a place, or a process, wherein this occurs. So no, the Catholics did not make it up.

Sorry, its not logically required that there is some physical or spiritual plane that takes xyz amount of time for someone to glorify. More importantly, yes they did make it up, and thats simply a historical and biblical fact...