DLV is dead

[Seraph07]

Speaking as a DLV fan of several years...

I've been wanting to say this for awhile, so i'll just be blunt; DLV is dead. BB is what killed it. I'm not a Beta Tester, and I know my insight on this is narrow but this is my opinion...

DLV without BB would have went the same route that HHRE, Sicilian Vespers etc;etc went a long time ago, alive but barely breathing.


The problem with BB future ( i;e reviving it's mother mod's fan base and support for improving it ) is that there are restrictions placed on what you can and can't change. The fans of BB want to see it go in another direction then those who have rights to it.
When does the statute of limitations on this run out? 1 year? Three years? It's been approximately 1 1/2 years since DLV has been updated (minus the defunct open beta)


Look at SS 6.3, with it's massive support. In the last 6 months it has greatly advanced in both depth and 'role-play elements'. True it doesn't touch the magic of BB, and it never will. I always find myself drawn back to BB.
Players can pick and choose which of the modders work they want to use.
Modders are given much more freedom to work and tweak, and consequently create a better mod.


Had to get this off too.
The campaign map is hideous when compared with SS and TATW.

Nobody cares about the Aztecs. Period. Lumping an entire continent to be controlled by one Central American civilization (which in most of my campaigns I don't even meet) is not only historically inaccurate it's a waste of space. Much more depth and realism could be added using those provinces in Europe ( Italy comes to mind) and Africa/Asia. Would an opinion poll hurt? I know im not the only one who feels like this.

.

[Tokus*Maximus]

DLV's not dead. It is what it is. Others exist too - all are different.
Repman created one heck of a mod. Taiji's doing a fine job with BB.

Look forward to having more time to play and enjoy this damn mod!

-- Tok

[Seraph07]

DLV's not dead. It is what it is. Others exist too - all are different.
Repman created one heck of a mod. Taiji's doing a fine job with BB.

Look forward to having more time to play and enjoy this damn mod!

-- Tok

I totally agree, though both are a understatements. My point is, and this from a fan not a modder, that it has come to the point that BB is it's own mod in and of itself. Absolutely Repmans work is the frame work for this ( in much the same way that MTW is the framework for his mod)

BB picked up and ran where DLV dropped pack along time ago.

Would you play DLV without it ?

[Taiji]

Seems the main objection you have is the right of the modder to decide whether they grant permission for others to use their work or not. Evil TWC defending the bad guys again. Repman was certainly keen not to include any SS stuff, didn't want to remove the aztecs, wanted to keep the map the same forever, etc. And especially about america many complained, over and over, and then occasionally someone would praise the choice, and then a load more complaining.

I've complained about it myself, in passing. But I still respect his choice, and his right to make it.

If on the other hand you have the impression that I have a blanket ban on providing alternatives, based on my BB work, to the work I still think I need a load of feedback on then you're damn right I have.

Imagine you're working on developing a game, you're years into the work, and then one of your testers decides he's going to start developing a very slightly new game which slightly changes stuff you need your testing team to give feedback on. His audience are your other testers, and there aren't many of them, how do you think it's going to work out?

Now consider how it would have worked out if he'd given more feedback. If they want to mod for themselves then they can. If they seriously want to learn more about the system, to be able to make a good modification then they can. If they make something I think is good then I want it in BB.

And the comparison with SS and TATW is fine to make but the conclusion you draw, that because they are so popular (with younger players), so they must be more 'alive'. And then that this 'aliveness' is brought about by the generosity of the modders in granting everyone rights to modify, I think it's doubtful really. And I think it's typically adults that are doing most of the serious modding in TWC. Not meaning to sound offensive, but coding would have bored me stupid me at 15. And really I think the forums are not such a good gauge of popularity in general, the TW series has masses of adult fans that wouldn't go on a forum except to find stuff to download.

But then I do think that Repman returning and releasing a new version would really help matters. His absence, along with DLV6.2+, is what prompts the mod-death-thread syndrome. Just releasing a new version shuts them all up, regardless of how he ignores the protests about what to include

And then we get a ton of 'remove the americas', 'the dark ages are unfair', 'dungeon script doesn't work', etc. threads from a sudden new crop of DLV players...

It would probably help me since the whole feedback and bug reports thread will be useful for the next DLV+BB version all over again. And I don't object to modifying stuff in a released version of DLV, I wouldn't want to change that even if I could, and I think it most likely wouldn't cause a problem.

[Seraph07]

Seems the main objection you have is the right of the modder to decide whether they grant permission for others to use their work or not.

No, the work done here is an art form, and as such it belongs to the artist.
But nobody here puts all this work in for themselves, they do it to share it do they not?

BB is it's own mod. You can't not honestly say that if it were given that status, DLV would disappear overnight and a massive wave of support would roll in for BB.

If you can't agree with that, then would it be? Will we see a BB 6.2/BB 10.5 Gold, with it's own sub mod removing the Aztecs?

I've complained about it myself, in passing. But I still respect his choice, and his right to make it.

From my narrow scope, it appears petty. All the work done over the years here has built upon itself. Why maintain an autocratic control over it, when a simple " You can use my work, just give me credit" would suffice.

Imagine you're working on developing a game and then one of your testers decides he's going to start developing a game which changes stuff you need your testing team to give feedback on. His audience are your other testers, and there aren't many of them, how do you think it's going to work out?

What about the fans ? DLV fans and the BB contributors are in line with what they like and enjoy. I assess it to be as such " We and the fans want to do this " meet with " Yes well I want to do this, so go pound sand."

[Taiji]

No, the work done here is an art form, and as such it belongs to the artist.
But nobody here puts all this work in for themselves, they do it to share it do they not?

Hmm, I think if you actually look at artists then they do it to earn a living. I don't try to make a good mod to share it with others. I don't mind sharing it and I'm pleased to make others happy so easily. I just make a good mod to make a good mod. I have to think it's good and getting better or it's not worth the effort.

BB is it's own mod. You can't not honestly say that if it were given that status, DLV would disappear overnight and a massive wave of support would roll in for BB.

Disappear? No DLV would just be losing a potential improver, and his recent improvements, along with those of many others. Plenty of improvers remain and they will keep modding for it as long as other mods don't do it like DLV does it. But perhaps BB could do with a sub forum, it would at least help keep my mess out of the main forum. But also I could ask for feedback and it would remain as a thread, rather than becoming 1 post in the 1000s.

If you can't agree with that, then would it be? Will we see a BB 6.2/BB 10.5 Gold, with it's own sub mod removing the Aztecs?

If Repman doesn't get a move on and release a new DLV version then quite possibly the americas will get removed in BB. And maybe he's into the idea of removing them now, impossible to tell with his absence.

From my narrow scope, it appears petty. All the work done over the years here has built upon itself. Why maintain an autocratic control over it, when a simple " You can use my work, just give me credit" would suffice.

I think it's easy to do that some time after it's finnished, or if it's someone else's work. A kind of finnish point cuts in for me when a DLV version with my work included is released.

What about the fans ? DLV fans and the BB contributors are in line with what they like and enjoy. I assess it to be as such " We and the fans want to do this " meet with " Yes well I want to do this, so go pound sand."

If you want to remove the americas in a mod (yet again) then you can. You can even do it to BB, I won't mind. Where I would mind is changes to unit balancing. It's a broad and complex system which affects campaign and battle AI, and both need more feedback, along with the more simple matter of 'what beats what' that most people seem to think unit balancing is about.

[Galloglaich]

DLV isn't dead. It's just sleeping and waiting for the right time to wake up again and make a mess out of civilization as we know it.

Seriously though, Since DLV still has many players, I can't say that it is dead. Many people are drawn to BB, true. But for me, BB is another big part of DLV that keeps changing. I seriously hope that Repman returns with a big update and BB can continue from there.

[Marku]

i feel very similar Seraph...i was a huge DLV fan, i loved the fact it kept getting constantly updated. now its pretty much dead except for BB mod which i DO love. alot. it kept the game interesting for me, combat-wise.

[Druvatar De Bodemloze]

just my humble opinion! DLV is Certainly alive! it is ( & will be forever! as mtw2 is played)one of the the top 5 mods ever produced & it still has sophisticated elements of gameplay to equate with anything new! DLV will always be Alive!! if it adds to the inspiration of other mods! Mine for instance but to speak further of that would be untactful! DLV is "Classic!" so death of DLV (to think it) is Blasphemy! ( be careful you may wake up with a priest trying to expunge your "heathen ways!")

[LaMuerte]

I would consider DLV dead when nothing new happens , posts don't get replied to , no feedback/criticism is given , no-one plays DLV , and when no-one would be viewing the subforum for ages. Not one of these criteria is met , hence DLV is alive.

Once in a while a thread like this pops up , nothing new.

[Kjertesvein]

I love how people hold on to DLV as if it's their dead loved ones or their favourite drug.

Or that doctor on those hospital series who desperately try to revive the dead man while other say "It's OK, it's OK. Let him go".

I would consider DLV dead when nothing new happens , posts don't get replied to , no feedback/criticism is given , no-one plays DLV , and when no-one would be viewing the subforum for ages. Not one of these criteria is met , hence DLV is alive.

Once in a while a thread like this pops up , nothing new.

Pretty much, but I'll add:

Weather this "DLV" sub forum is declared dead or not is just a matter of popularity drawn from formalities. Had Taiji made a sticky next to DLV Europe and asked for front page news + some eye-candy in the preview, then it would be technically "alive" since more people checked out DLV.

~Wille

[Overlord.ru]

I can't 100% agree with the first post, but it reflects many of my thoughts.

DLV without BB would have went the same route that HHRE, Sicilian Vespers etc;etc went a long time ago, alive but barely breathing.

- the main sentence

I also don't agree that this mod is dead, my opinion is that its state is "frozen" so to say. There's a great lack on information about it's future and it's author + there's very little work on the improvement of what's done. I suppose that's the reason which made the author to open this thread and his feelings can be understood.

[SonOfOdin]

It's 5/1/2011, and I still play DLV(only as the HRE though..tee hee )

What's BB though?

[kaiser1993]

It's 5/1/2011, and I still play DLV(only as the HRE though..tee hee )

What's BB though?

A submod made by Taiji for DLV 6.2
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219603

[Tokus*Maximus]

Dead?

We'll all BEG for death before the end of this mod!

[Rafael_Brasil]

This is very unfair with the mod fans.I know that belongs to Repman,but he could leave free those interested in continuing his work.

I do not play the dlv long time ago, and BB too because of the horrible bugs.

What needs to repman release the modders who want to continue the dlv work?

[isa0005]

I LOVE DLV! It was the first MTW mod I ever downloaded! I also might add that I am new to the forums as one can see but I have been playing Total War seres right from the beginning at Shogun Ahhhh the memories!

As many people have said before me, DLV isn't dead, this thread is proof of that. The community is alive, kicking and screaming... and waiting for Repman to return.

Others have also said that it is "frozen" "sleeping" "In an extended period of hibernation" this aspect of DLV is true albeit not entirely accurate.
Although further material released by Repman man has "stopped" or has been "suspended" the mod itself is not dead. Gf you are reading what I am saying here you're might be thinking "jee, this noob guy is just repeating himself and repeating most of the other guys and gals here" sure thats true but I and many others who still post on this forum and observe the activity every so often, who still create things like BB are trying to exhibit to those who believe that this mod to be "dead" "diseased" "lifeless" or what ever other word you can think of to describe "the end" that this so called "fact" is indeed untrue.

when it comes to the "next gen" mods as I like to call them like TATW and SS, although they look shiny and are indeed very good they miss that certain extra "spice" that DLV had and still has. TATW in my opinion is an amazing mod in all aspects SS is very fun and very good looking although I find it irritating at times. DLV is the as someone mention earlier, the "classic" and from my memory the first major mod of its kind, it inspired people to mod and if you look very closely at some of the other larger mods out there you'll even notice things that were indeed pioneered in DLV.

and finally I've never played BB but seeing this thread has got me VERY interested!

Nuff said!

[Tokus*Maximus]

Is this mod dead yet?

[Atatürk]

What is 'BB'?

[Marku]

Ataturk go download it here, it makes combat x100 times better

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219603