pike-and-shot fatal flaw

[rowanda]

I get the concept of the pike-and-shot. basically you intersperse a musketeer unit with a pike-man unit so the muskets could fire and the pikemen could protect them melee. My problem is that when infantry units try to engage the musketeers one of them always get through the pikes and starts attacking a musketeer. This results in all the musketeers stopping fire and throwing there lives away by engaging in melee. does anyone know how to solve this so that the musketeers will remain firing while the pike men hold the infantry back to be shot up.

I'm using Tercio pikemen and musketeers


thanks,

[avion365]

use skirmish for your muskets to keep them from getting into a melee. also once your pike line is engaged turn off guard mode, this allows your pike-men to use their pikes(they can't in guard mode and only hold them there keeping the enemy from advancing, i think there is a way to use guard mod to hold an enemy to help the muskets fire point blank into the advancing enemy but i don't know how.

[rowanda]

That's useful , but it kind of takes the musketeers out of the battle until the enemy routs and they can shoot at their backs. I'm looking for the point blank option. I think I either need to get the pike out farther ahead or slow down the enemy infantry before the meet the pikes. I've tried modding it so that musketeers can deploy stakes to slow them down but it doesn't work that well.

anyways to keep the infantry at bay?
thanks.

[kingtigertank]

the trick is to never let the enemy infantry reach your men.... your muskets should rout pretty much any enemy infantry before it can run the massive distance that is the range of your muskets.

[avion365]

no prob,
here is a guide to all that stuff;
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=316825

[John Haukewood]

If you want to keep using your gunners, then don't let the enemy get near them. Some players move them to the flanks once the infantry have met; personally, I tend to keep them there and use handgunners instead of musketeers. Although their musket fire is nowhere near as powerful, they can defend themselves well as swordsmen with pike support, and most enemies rout soon after reaching the pike wall anyway.

[rowanda]

I think I've figured it out. you need 3 pikemen for each musketeer ( a bit impractical but you can tailor it to your tastes), you stretch out each unit as far ass you can and then superimpose all the pikemen together. you then put your musketeer unit in between the the first pike-man and the tip of the pikes. a few hostiles might get through the pikes but they should be beaten back fast enough for the muskets to fire a few more times before the enemy routs.
I'd imagine you could put more musketeers into the mixture but I haven't tested it yet

[PrestigeX]

The firearm units take a bit of time to become skilled with, and while they don't necessary rake in as many kills as crossbowmen, they can easily rout the best of units. Try using pikemen as a center in a somewhat boxy formation, with musket/arquebuisers on the sides, and behind the musketeers have your cavalry. Your horsemen can charge the routers, and more quickly engage anything that is about to harm your musketeers. You could also use pikemen at the center with something like DFKS, or spearmen behind the musketeers to quickly engage.

It's usually too much bother to have pikemen directly behind the musketeers, because you'll end up with your musketmen scrambling through the pikemen lines and will disrupt formations - or your muskets won't be able to escape, or you will be too cautious and run your muskets away before they've had a chance to really inflict any kills.

[SimonSays]

My impression of it is that the pike and shot formation has not been applied specifically. So whist you can create something that resembles pike and shot, gameplay-wise it does not really work that way. You could get multiple units of spearmen and arrange them together into a roughish circle, but it just won't work as well as the schiltrom formation that has been hard-coded into the game. But I'm sure this is what you are thinking already anyway.

[nhinhonhinho]

My pike and shot is somewhat weird and difference i think. However it's seem quite effect (with AI)

Formation (just discus pikeman and shooter only)

PP: Pikeman
GG: Gunner

Stage 1: When both side starting to class

GG PP GG PP GG PP GG PP....GG

Place both gunner and pikeman next to the other. So your gunner can starting to shoot at the enemy when they approach


Stage 2: When the enemy come close and the melee begin

GG PP PP PP PP PP.... GG

GG GG GG GG...

The enemy come! Let your gunner step back far enough then fire through the gaps they made (which probable fill with enemy troops now). If you do it correctly all of enemy troops will fill the gaps and get stuck by pikeman since they can't send a whole unit through the gaps. Your pikeman probably get flank from both side but your enemy will become a good target for gunner who firing through the gaps. You can also move gunner from 2 flanks to behind the enemy and shoot them.

This tactic seem effect in M2TW with gunner and pikeman. In RTW it's effect with phalanx and slinger

Note: Any additional cav especially missile cav is very helpful

[Old Geezer]

I am not certain that Med 2 can simulate pike and shot formation because of the limitations of the formations and controlling the units. Perhaps it can be done with a lot of careful micromanagement. My problem is that the firearms seem to be so ineffective. The only time that I have had them work well is in an America's campaign and as the Spanish I attacked the English and French with them. They were very ineffective with the Natives however. There low morale, inaccuracy, and slow rate of fire makes them marginal at best. Also, why they have such low ability to melee is beyond me. Surely, they were taught to use swords. Or was that just the 3(4) musketeers. The shot and pike tactics were developed somewhat later than the period the game covers, so I am not very disappointed that such are difficult to use.

The Pikemen are my favorite unit (except maybe for javelin cavalry). But, that is because I remove their secondary weapons and use them offensively and not just defensively. I have done the same for the enemy AI pikemen. Pikemen are not overwhelmingly powerful this way but do what they should do which is destroy cavalry and infantry which is stupid enough to charge straight into the front of the pikes. Pikemen will die like flies if they are hit by good archers or javelins. Varangian Guard certainly can defeat them. I think that the heavy Venetian infantry can and also the dismounted English knights can defeat the pikemen. These infantry would probably do much better if they had 75-men units like the pikemen do. Crossbowmen shooting at a massed formation of pikemen (as the AI) deploys them is really effective since just about every bolt kills a pikeman. So after 3 or 4 volleys a charge will usually route the pikemen.

I am pleased to see that some of y'all are able to make the pike and shot tactics work and would really like to watch you conduct a such a battle.